Thinking about disappointment

Yesterday I wrote a post at Moxieville about asking my ex-husband to take our kids out of Boy Scouts, now that they're reaffirmed their ban on gay Scouts and leaders.

I am so disgusted by the BSA and I really do not want my kids to have anything to do with the organization.

But I realize this is a tough thing for their dad. Scouting meant a lot to him. One of the first things he told me when we started dating was that he's an Eagle Scout, and what his project was. He has stories of Scout Camp, and his nemesis at Scout Camp, and all the things he learned and experiences he had.

So it has to be truly disappointing to him that the group that gave him so much good isn't good anymore. (Not that they ever were, but when everyone was homophobic the BSA wasn't any worse than anyone else that way.)

I've taken some abuse from former Boy Scouts who have defended the BSA's right to homophobia very vociferously. While I think fighting for an organization with an indefensible position is bizarre, I understand that it has to be coming from disappointment and fear that the good that these men experienced in Boy Scouts is somehow meaningless.

It's not. What my ex-husband got from Boy Scouts was great. It's with him still. What these men who've gotten so angry at me experienced in Scouting was valuable. It was worthwhile. They are worthwhile.

But it's time for a new understanding of what they can be. What they can stand up for.

People have been talking about alternative organizations, and the alternatives sound good, but they're all co-ed. I think men's space is important. And I wish there was an organization for boys that welcomed all boys and their parents. I wish my boys had regular male role models that reflected different ways of being a man.

I wish my ex-husband didn't have to be disappointed. And that he didn't have to make a choice.

Disappointment hurts.

53 thoughts on “Thinking about disappointment”

  1. I keep seeing posts on FB about local chapters affirming that they will remain open to everyone, and so families are posting that is ok to remain a part of the organization. I maintain that it is NOT ok, unless these local chapters are banding together to stand up to the national organization and demanding change. And then I count backwards from 10 and thank the stars that I have girls.

  2. Thank you for posting this.My sons’ school has a Scout Troop and I’ve been torn as to what we would do if they wanted to join. We’re Atheists and I have a huge problem with an organization that requires belief in God at a public school but I don’t want to be That Parent and make a stink about it. Not to mention the anti-gay issue which is huge, IMO. But again, I was on the fence if this was an activity my kids wanted to participate in.
    However, the renewal of the Anti-Gay policy has pushed me over the edge. Both my husband and I feel strongly about not letting our boys join the Scouts. So now we need to come up with a plan as to what to say if they ask. Probably a brief explanation about their friend with two Daddies and the Scouts not approving of our church (Unitarian). I hate that my son could be confronted with these issues at the tender age of 6 y/o but that’s the world we live in, I guess.

  3. Yeah, I have two boys and have long felt very uncomfortable with the Scouts. My husband was a Cub Scout for a while, but it did not suit his personality. He begged to quit, and it is still a sore spot of contention with his father, who was an Eagle Scout. My husband has said that we should let our boys join if the local troop is good, and that a boy’s experience really is dictated by the troop. But I just can’t do it. I just can’t allow that to be part of our lives. It is often too easy to turn a blind eye to injustice and bigotry and hatred, and that’s not a lesson I want to teach.

  4. Scouting is very important to my husband, who attributes scouting with his success as a person after a hard early childhood, death of a parent, and abandonment by the other parent. He does not agree with their discrimination, but feels very strongly that they do a lot of great things for youth despite this stance.He is still active, and helps youth develop technology and photography skills, while also being a positive male role model who DOES NOT side with the discriminatory practices of their national board. While he is at odds with their national policy, he (we, really) feel that it will never change if people who believe in the program leave the program, despite the positive things. There is a large amount of dissent in the ranks, but BSA receives the majority of their funding through Latter Day Saints. If they do not bend to the will of Latter Day Saints, Scouting will cease to exist because there will be no money. Like most, if not all, organizations, money is king.
    I am deeply saddened by the stance that BSA has taken on this issue, and always have been. This is why I have not and will not join the scouts in any capacity, but I will not deny my son the experiences he might have in the future with his father because I don’t agree with them. The more open-minded people that fill their ranks (and they are there, even in the bible belt!), the quicker change will come.

  5. My husband was an almost-Eagle Scout & has the same wonderful memories of being in the Boy Scouts. He would love our 2 boys to be scouts, but we’ve agreed that until this hideous, discriminatory, cruel policy is changed, they won’t be involved in the BSA in any way.My brother is gay – how can I support an organization that wouldn’t let him participate in any way and actively discriminates against him? What if one of my boys is gay?
    If we don’t stand up for human rights, what are we teaching our children? That it’s OK to discriminate if money is involved?

  6. This was all over my FB yesterday. I have a 6 year old boy (and two girls), and there was a lot said about the alternatives, especially the single sex nature of Boy Scouts (for what it’s worth, it turns out Girl Scouts is not really that much better- their policy is don’t ask don’t tell, and any “displays” are inappropriate and will get you banned, and also they require belief/pledge to God, so no agnostics or atheists. I was surprised- I always thought the GS were very tolerant.)We have Y-guides/Adventure Guides near us, and my 8 year old daughter is in a troop. They have an explicit nondiscrimination policy for both members and employees- no religious or sexuality requirement at ALL, for any level of participation, despite the “C” in YMCA. Policy wise, it is perfect, actually. It’s father/child, and where we are the troops are single sex, as are the camps. I know it’s not a nation wide single sex entirely organization, but I do think it’s the best alternative, and honestly they are doing exactly the same stuff, at least at the elementary grades.
    I know they have every right to be bigoted if they want. It is certainly a private organization. Heck, if they want they can require all members to eat only purple eggplant dip for lunch every day. But I don’t want to support those kinds of policies, and they’ve made it very clear that nothing short of people leaving is going to change them. As it stands now all they do is kick people out when it turns out they are gay or atheist, which they’ll keep doing for decades to come as long as they feel secure as the only game in town. Take over the Y-Guides or something, make the boy version what you want.

  7. Wow, I had no idea that Scouting in the US was like this (I live on the other side of the world in Australia).As I understand it, there are no restrictions on gay people holding membership or leadership here in Australia.
    I think Moxie makes a valid point that spaces for boys and men are important, but I thought you might be interested to know that here in Australia the whole organization is Co-ed.
    I was a Venturer Scout in my teens (15-18) and I got so much out of it.
    While the scouts oath still contains reference to God…
    On my honour
    I promise that I will do my best
    To do my duty to my God, and
    To Australia
    To help other people, and
    To live by the Scout Law
    …Scouting is not affiliated with any religious group. Then again, Australian culture is, by and large, much more secular, and religious beliefs are more private.
    Baden Powell founded scouting to be independent of any single faith or religion, but believed that belief in spirituality or a higher power was important (hence the reference to “my God”).
    It sounds like such a shame that religion has been allowed to exert such influence on Scouting in America.

  8. This makes me so sad. My boys could really benefit from scouting, and we have some awesome troops around here (including one started by a family whose autistic son was not allowed to join the established troops once upon a time, though all the troops I know of in our area currently have at least one differently-abled child now).But. But. But. This is like Chik-Fil-A for me. I agree with SO much of what they do and my kids love them. But I can’t go there anymore when they are bragging about how much money they spend preventing people I love from marrying the people they love.
    It’s so sad. So much amazing potential, wasted, all around.

  9. We also will never join the BSA until the ban is lifted. It hits home to us; the boys have a gay uncle, and I can’t let them me a part of an explicitly homophobic organization. I mean, I know I don’t have to personalize it that way, it’s wrong from any kind of social justice perspective, but I’ve felt really strongly about this from the start (ie from the time they were born).

  10. Count us in, which is to say out, and thanks, Moxie, for writing about this. I do find it so frustrating (especially the latest decision because — come on!), but there’s no way I’m willing to sign my son up in an organization that wouldn’t welcome his adult sister and her wife as den mothers.

  11. So, my step-son was in scouts for about 10 years. My husband is still a scout leader.It’s confusing to me – because, at a local level, it doesn’t feel like the troop/pack would be unwelcoming and it surprises (astounds?) me that the executives at national level cited that as the reason that they should be allowed to continue to discriminate. So, since I don’t see it in practice in the troop, I end up forgetting that it’s even a policy.
    The other part is that this policy seems to directly oppose the scout law itself (A scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, courteous, kind, obedient, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent).
    There are definitely religious organizations who use Boy Scouts as an important part of their youth program, and I can see how they would want the program to match up with their values.
    However, I don’t think that most troops, packs, and crews would really adopt this as their policy in real life. I think the places where you would run into it as an issue is when individuals within the unit have this view and push it on to the troop.

  12. My 7yo just finished up his Tiger Cub, and I truly hope he sticks it out and makes his Eagle Scout. There may be other organizations that offer things for the youth, but there is nothing else out there with the name recognition of the Eagle Scout. There might be other scouting organizations out there that have an equivalent, but it won’t be instantly recognizable as the EAGLE SCOUT is. If my son wants to go to a service academy some day, he needs to have the Eagle Scout.I’m an atheist (though societally Judeo-Christian) and I can see myself agitating for change from within (when my kids are older and I have time to assume a leadership role in the scouts). I don’t want to discriminate against any family who would want to join to perform acts of service for the community.

  13. Girl Scouts isn’t what it used to be either, as I can attest after a year of volunteering. I served as cookie chairman and got to see some workings of our local Council that really made me hope my daughter will move on from scouting. Even GS camp is a watered-down thing.But. She went to YMCA camp this summer and it was everything we could have asked for. She did get girl space, as the kids do not sleep in co-ed cabins. I can assume it’s the same for boys. We used Traditional Camp, but they have camp sessions that are for special interests and that might lead to some that are more male-only. It might be worth asking your local Y if male-only might be something they would consider simply because of issues that arise from BSA policies. It could be a market niche that they aren’t aware exists.
    Finally, I sympathize with the disappointment but from the other side. I wanted to use Catholic school that has a latchkey program through grade 8 so as to avoid public school hassles where it stops at grade 4 or grade 5. We need after school care, period. I was shot down because my husband was adamant that the Catholic church NOT be supported by us financially or by sending our child because of their political stance on birth control. I was prepared to overlook it and teach DD differently, but he was not. FWIW I did find afterschool care in a private home for the coming year. It was hard for sure, but possible.

  14. Abstracting from this specific issue, what’s interesting to me here is how parents make space for each others’ values and traditions. My own husband, for instance, is supporting me in raising our daughters Catholic, despite the fact that he disagrees vehemently with many of the positions the Church adopts, politically and otherwise. And I’m grateful to him for that — there is a grace in allowing principles to bend to accommodate the needs and desires and experiences of individuals. I’m not at all trying to say that those who refuse to participate in Boy Scouts aren’t doing something valuable and righteous — they are, and I respect them for it. But I would also respect you, Moxie, if you said, look, this infuriates me and violates my principles, but I am setting that aside because it means a great deal to my kids’ dad and will bring them joy. (I should add, too, that I fully expect my husband to be open with our girls about why he isn’t Catholic, or why he believes differently about certain moral issues — and we already teach them things about, say, gay relationships, that are in direct contradiction of what they will eventually know to be Church teaching — but I also appreciate that he’s willing to save those discussions for when they’re older, allowing us for now to simply be part of the church.)

  15. I typically don’t post much, but this one really hits home. I have a gender-fluid/gender-variant child of 5. Last year at our township community day, we stopped by the BSA booth, and I asked about their ongoing stance on homosexuals/transexuals. They laughed and made some derisive remarks; I’m hoping they simply didn’t know that was my son in the pink frilly dress.My sister is gay, but I never knew how much feeling could be around this until I had a child of my own, and felt every one of these kind of barbs as though it were in my own flesh.
    I hold with the “All that is required for evil to prevail, etc” stance when it comes to “great local troops”, and “change from within” theory, unless those with boys in the scouts are actively and currently protesting.
    Finally, everything I read on kids who are in the category of my son, show a lot of signs of it quite early; and one of the most important things you can do for them is let them see from the beginning–there are normal wonderful adults around living with many kinds of sexuality and gender identification.
    Saying “my troop allows it” means a boy like mine will grow up knowing that it’s ok as long as you keep it on the DL, and don’t aspire to leadership. Or worse, he’ll be totally confused by the double standard–that it’s ok, but we sure don’t expect it to be supported by anyone in power.
    So–I’m pretty much live and let live (not as livid and let livid as I may seem here); which means I’m ok with BSA existing. I just hope that people like Moxie whose boys aren’t gay, (and many other posters here) will diminish the organization by attrition.
    To end on a positive note (with my thanks for putting up with my soapbox: Here’s a link to a fantastic pro-gay hip-hop release>>http://www.buzzfeed.com/stacylambe/hip-hop-duo-releases-song-in-support-of-marriage-e

  16. @Stillbecoming, WOW, this: “Saying “my troop allows it” means a boy like mine will grow up knowing that it’s ok as long as you keep it on the DL, and don’t aspire to leadership. Or worse, he’ll be totally confused by the double standard–that it’s ok, but we sure don’t expect it to be supported by anyone in power.”That is why I don’t support the BSA. I understand fighting from within/changing from within, but for the most part, what I see in the ‘I’ll stay and try to change it’ responses across the interwebs is ‘my troop is fine, so I don’t have anything to worry about (and so I’ll just keep it okay down here where nobody is looking, and maybe discuss it with my troop members to keep that okay, but… well, writing letters and protesting actively within is likely to get me kicked out and shine the wrong kind of light on our troop and may bring down the wrath of the hierarchy and harm the very same families I’m hoping to protect, so I’ll just keep it quiet and not really try to change POLICY’ (not saying that Moxites won’t start some internal letter-writing campaign, etc., but I wonder what would happen to members who actively agitate from within to change the policy At The Top – not just ‘make sure our group is fine’ but ‘make a real change’…)… I think the ‘stay and make pockets of okay’ is a stage in the process, but boy, change is much less likely if someone doesn’t speak up.
    Truly, if it were blacks or Jews, it would be no different for me. It is a hard line for me – though grieving the need to leave or not join in the next generation has got to be intensely hard. (I’m not ethically absolute on everything, really, but … well, hard line I cannot cross, right here.)
    I understand not wanting to leave, and hoping to change it from within, but the comments about funding are central to the problem as well. Money is driving this. People are looking the other way in order to get the money to fund the activities. It’s another bad lesson to add in, that it is okay to take money and allow the money source to control your ethics and actions, provided the money allows you to do other things you want to do.
    If my boys were interested, I’d say no, and why, and they would probably be thrilled and relieved to skip it because they have strong beliefs on this the same as the rest of my family.
    The other thing this reminds me of? The challenge of raising your children differently than you were raised, without rejecting your parents. There’s a common ground value under here that is worth bringing forward, and I think Moxie has done that – the value of the all male experience, the value of the skills BSA (perhaps previously) taught, the honor of being an Eagle Scout, all of that is worth recognizing. I think you can fairly argue that a child raised with the baseline BSA values as an adult now could look at the BSA policy and say ‘internally inconsistent’ and be able to say ‘I reject the current BSA *because* of what the BSA taught me, it it is those values I believe in most deeply, not the organization itself.’ That’s the bottom line for common ground, that the most powerful part that was taught is what is driving different decisions in a different context and time. Like my parents believing in research-informed parenting, but the research has moved way past where it was before.
    When the world was aligned to ‘tiny pockets of acceptance kept out of the light and the rest outright public rejection’ the BSA position was not a big deal – not progressive, but there were no clear alternatives, and not even sorta-kinda-comparable options. When the world is aligned to ‘accept, and beyond accept, fight for equality at all levels’ (especially among younger generations), and there are alternatives (even though they don’t have the cachet of Eagle Scout, and may never have that level of recognition)? I end up standing with Stillbecoming, and hope it diminishes by attrition. I have to be intentional in accepting ethical flexibility on this point, in being okay with other peoples’ values not being the same as mine. But as I am not ethically absolute in other areas, I make the effort (though I’ll obviously still argue the point).
    I’m not a scout, and never was (I think I had a trial visit to bluebirds or brownies once? and my elder brother was a Scout), but it still makes me sad for all the good people who got good things from it, like LOD, and who now find that it can’t be reconciled. And the very best of luck to those who are staying and working from within, courage and strength to keep up what must be a daunting and exhausting prospect – if the BSA could be salvaged at the top, that would be a great outcome. I hope it is fast, so fewer kids grow up with the mixed messages.

  17. Thanks for writing this post! it raises some really key and sobering issues… I understand the disappointment that your ex feels and also, it’s such a beautiful message to give your kids – that inclusivity and equality are so important that sometimes we have to sacrifice something. A great life lesson.I hope you write the scouts and clearly state why you are pulling out your boys. If more of us name this publicly they may start to shift their thinking.
    change is slow – and steady, and it IS possible.

  18. Since the national organization can and will kick out gay/lesbian troop leaders, you can’t say that your local troop is okay. Because they are only okay so long as everything is closeted.I wouldn’t expect my black friends to understand if I signed my kids up for a whites only club, no matter how great it otherwise is. So, really, I can’t understand how otherwise accepting friends think that they just get a pass on Boy Scouts.
    Plus, what if one of your sons is gay?

  19. Like the very first poster, I thank my lucky stars I have girls. I feel fairly confident if we DID have boys, we absolutely would not participate in BSA. But I get the argument, sure, that some others have made here. Also for me–sorry to sound so cynical and paranoid–but I’m frankly surprised that any extremely hierarchical, exclusive rather than inclusive, all-male organization is still having any children at all sent to it.But it’s Penn State! PENN STATE! What an honor to have our kid selected to attend!
    On a more snickery side, our local paper ran an article about the BSA policy yesterday, and the official wording from the organization was something like “We can’t allow distractions in our organization.” It was definitely the word “distraction.” I called DH, laughing, saying Wow! They are really so very DISTRACTED by gay men and boys! I think most people that are just okay with their sexuality–wheverever they land on the spectrum–don’t get their knickers all twisted up and so INCREDIBLY DISTRACTED by gay individuals. Self-identifying, much?

  20. I find it very sad that this needed to be discussed at all, let alone came down on the side of bigotry and discrimination. I had no idea that this was an issue in the US until recently. All of my experience with scouting is in the UK, where “the Scout Association has an equal opportunities policy, and welcomes members regardless of their sexual orientation”.The biggest criticism in the UK is that it still has religious leanings, although it is not affiliated with any religious group and they do allow the pledge to be adapted to account for different religions.
    My brothers were all scouts and I was in the guides and we all have great memories. My kids are still too young. So I guess right now, this just makes me sad and disappointed in a group of people that had the opportunity to be real leaders.
    I do have one question though: what is an Eagle scout? Some of you mention that your husbands are Eagle scouts which makes me think of grown men running around in shorts and playing games. No offense intended, but I’m inferring it’s something more serious than that. Scouts in the UK only go to 14 or so and then there’s an afffiliated group (venturers?) that goes to 17/18, but most stop as early teenagers. I could be dating myself here but I’ve never heard of adult scounts. Just curious …

  21. Hi Sara, others will weigh in with better info than what I have, but being an Eagle Scout is truly a big deal and a huge accomplishment. It’s not usually adults, but teen males that become Eagle Scouts. I heard somewhere that Eagle Scouts–there’s some privilege it confers with getting into West Point or one of the very prestigious military academies. It opens doors.

  22. I’m so disappointed. My 4-year-old, who is not a natural joiner, would love Boy Scouts. Sometimes we hike past troops exploring a quarry near our home, and I know he’d be so happy to join them. But it’s not gonna happen. Any group that won’t take our gay friends isn’t getting us.

  23. Sara, being an Eagle Scout doesn’t just mean staying in the scouts until you’re older – a boy has to undertake a really significant service project, along with a bunch of other requirements. I remember attending my friend Jim’s Eagle Scout ceremony in high school – all of his friends and family were there, it was a huge, huge deal. He was the only one I knew – it’s not common. But I do wonder if it will maintain the prestige it currently has, if the organization comes to be seen as outdated or representing bigotry.

  24. I have a small boy who would love the outdoor activities, being part of a group, all the learning. He will not be a Boy Scout as long as this policy is in place. My husband and I may be straight, but we have gay friends, and a policy of exclusion is not acceptable in any group we will support with our membership and funds.

  25. I also want to point out that girls can be Boy Scouts and a lot a troops are lead by women (Den mothers). They don’t just not find gay men offensive, they kick out lesbian den mothers.And it makes me so sad. My family is big into scouting. My male cousins and uncles are Eagle Scouts. My grandfather was highly involved. He was even buried in his scouting uniform. It’s been a big deal in my family for decades. But my son can’t join. It makes me sad.

  26. My son really wanted to do Cub Scouts, and we really discouraged it. Even though he was in the third grade, we told him all of the reasons we didn’t want him to do it (mainly the anti gay part and the mandatory belief in God). He gave reasoned responses as to why he wanted to do it. We reiterated our reasons, and he was steadfast. When he was able to graduate to Boy Scouts in fifth grade, we again expressed our reservations. He again gave reasons why he wanted to do it. We did not agree, but allowed him to do it anyway. Last year, in the seventh grade, he decided to stop. I’m very relieved that he decided to stop, because both my husband and I felt strongly about it. However, I think that it was important for our son to know that he was listened to, and respected – even when it didn’t line up with our beliefs.That said, he had some wonderful experiences that he never would have otherwise. He attended and participated in city council meetings, volunteered at the big regional food bank, and did all of the “normal” camping/fire safety/”scouting” types of things.
    But he was also exposed to a few families that had very different beliefs than us (political/religious). It actually allowed us to speak up directly why we found these ideas so repellant, and gave us the opportunity to give real-world advice on how to handle it.
    And truthfully, as the boys grew older, I found that the PARENTS wanted the Eagle Scout award more than most of the kids. I saw many kids getting signed off on badges that the parents did more of the work than the kids. We don’t believe in lying for our kids, so that was tricky when we saw what did (or didn’t happen), and our kid was wondering why the other kids got away with it.
    We just had our first experience with Camp Fire USA (it’s not just for girls anymore). My three boys attended a day camp, and I volunteered as the storyteller for the camp. I was VERY impressed with how well the camp was run. I had often been told that it was a very “inclusive” organization, and I assumed that it had to do with the gay/God thing. But there were several special needs kids and young adults (as campers and staff members), and my heart was touched to see them working right alongside everyone else. I can’t wait to be more involved.

  27. I used to patron chic fil a. I enjoyed their number one a great deal and really appreciated that they gave books instead of toys tied to movies.However, I know now that the money I spent at chic fil went to organizations that actively lobby against me being able to get legally married and actively lobby against my son having two legal moms.
    Now that I know this, I will never go back no matter the positive experience it may have previously brought.
    To say that the boy scouts does great things for some kids while actively promoting discrimination against other kids and their parents is the only argument possible (without coming right out and saying you agree with the discrimination.) Of course it’s going to come with benefit to some group! If no one got anything from it, it wouldn’t exist. If it didn’t harm some other group, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
    My son will never be able to be a boy scout because he has two mommies and we would never, ever KNOWINGLY put him in a position where he would look up to people, take moral guidance from people, who say there is something very WRONG with who we are as human beings and as a family. So he’ll never be an eagle scout and now apparently never get in to West Point. Probably because he has two moms and it’s still okay to look the other way at discrimination.

  28. I was pleased to read this article in my local paper about the Boy Scouts in Minnesota. http://www.startribune.com/local/west/162817346.html The first two paragraphs read: Minnesota’s biggest Boy Scout group said Tuesday that gays and lesbians remain welcome in its troops, despite a national announcement that the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) will continue to bar leaders, employees and members who are “open or avowed homosexuals.””We’re a reflection of the community,” said Kent York, spokesman for the Northern Star Council, which has 75,000 Scouts in Minnesota and western Wisconsin. “Our commitment has been to reach out to all young people and have a positive influence.”

  29. Writer Magazine. Chaque écrivain doit avoir une chance de lire ce. C’est que vous important.Thank pour la fabrication de ce poste et d’affichage. Nombre de points lumineux n’importe quelle note.L’écriture est un art, l’édition est une société (une société qui fou) et les écrivains doivent underdand que, pour survivre, ils doivent devenir intelligent à l’époque. Bonne chance avec le blog!

  30. Well done! Vous avez réussi à dire les choses comme il est fou dans cette affaire et sont très encourageants. Je me sens mieux après avoir viens de lire votre discours, et je regrette de ne pas avoir té e là pour vous rencontrer et d’entendre.J’ai eu la chance d’avoir vu ce post vous live.I applaudi pour nous donner le droit, et les encourager à envoyer à digérer ou de l’écrivain

  31. Thanks for engaging in this conversation. Amongst my group of friends, many of whom are gay, lesbian or bisexual, including myself, this isn’t an issue as we all would not have our kids join BSA, but I am happy to see folks wrestling with the issues and many coming down on the side of justice.I just want to put in a second for Camp Fire. I was it in as a child and it was a great experience and I think worth looking into as an alternative.

  32. As long as you do not expect them to wear begdas BS, no one will care. Well, assuming that the girls really want to do in your show. If you end up with a group who really wants to craft a camp, you’d be better to find a new leader, or in connection with their choice. For the GS-based program let the girls focus on their agenda. (You may be surprised by the diversity of activities shows the actual substance of GS as well, though. There’s a lot of there types of outdoor adventures, as well as crafty types, making it a perfect balance of an average girl with a keen, to try most anything with his troops, the rest if it is open-minded leaders.)

  33. To Matthew Mosley and Tom Haigh , we hope your having a great time , and Kat says how dare you see kings of leon wiuthot her , enjoy the exeperience , and hope your enjoying the jamboree , we are very proud of both of you , can’t wait to here all about it !! Kat , John , Matthew and Carl x

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  35. Hey Guys! My name is Marina and I’m from Brazil!I canb4t wait to meet with scouts there and make some new frneids!!!!That’s really exciting and I’m already doing my COUNTDOWN now! hahahaHope to see you!AND If you want to chat with me, here is my facebook : Marina Ozon

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