An insight into helicopter parents

The other day a friend was talking about how her son was doing something on the playground that scared her, and how she really had to reign in her helicopter tendencies not to stop him from doing it.

I said that we all had those fears, but what separated us from the actual helicopter parents is that we have impulse control and the helicopter parents don't. The helicopter parents give in to their impulses for immediate gratification to control the situation, while the rest of us know that kids need to experience things like failure and gravity so they can develop into competent people, so we control the impulse to control the situation.

It just came to me in the moment, but the more I think about it the more sense it makes to me. It's hard not to control everything all the time. And it's hard not to want our kids to be happy all the time. But those of us who see the long game know it's not about being happy as much as it is about perseverance and knowing your limits.

Thoughts?

105 thoughts on “An insight into helicopter parents”

  1. Isn’t it just confusion over what’s the right thing to do — I’m a good parent if I do THIS, so I’ll be an even better parent if I do THIS? Add that to a risk-averse, controlling personality and you get a helicopter parent?My husband is constantly scared our daughter will hurt herself, so he’s always keeping her from doing “dangerous” things. He’s also a GREAT driver — a personality thing. I’m a risk taker (physically), so I probably let her do too many “dangerous” things.
    On the other hand, he’s very laid back about her schooling and “preparing” her for “success.” I want to try to “give her the very best.” (Yes, that’s a lot of quotes — seems appropriate.) So I’m more likely to be the one calling the school and asking what’s going on. (She’s only 4, so we’ll see how it plays out.)
    I’m sure that wasn’t terribly insightful — just a few thoughts.

  2. One of the leaders in my step son’s Boy Scout troop imparted the wisdom that one of the hardest things to do is let your kids fail. And I have no idea why that is true, but it is.It’s hard for me to trust that (a)nothing super awful will happen if he fails and (b)he has the resources/wit to wing it if things don’t work out as he expected. It is, of course, important to keep an eye on the situations and know when it’s important to step in.
    As he approaches his senior year in high school, it’s interesting to see how his priorities, interests and dreams are so very different than mine. And I’m starting to be able to think that it’s OK. 🙂 And that maybe I can give him the room to give it a shot. What’s the worst that can happen and if he has the gumption to make it go, why not let him?
    Also have you seen the PSA about texting and driving from a car manufacturer? (It starts with super protective things that parents do with their little kids, moves to buckling a child into his/her car seat, then the mom checks her smart phone as she’s driving and gets t-boned. Disturbing because it is true.)

  3. I suspect that’s one aspect.Another is the cultural shift toward anxiety and trauma avoidance in the media (hence ‘Protecting the Gift’ being a useful read – target the skills and avoidance that are of any use, rather than blanket avoidance of anything distressing).
    And a third is a generational strong desire to be friends with the kids when they’re grown – what I’ve read in some articles discussing the problem is that the parents really LIKE their kids in many ways, and are protecting not just the child, but their potential future engagement in their lives over the long run. Which is a self-driven impulse (not coming from the child’s interest, but the parents’).
    I’ve seen a couple of articles that suggest that helicoptering is about parental self-involvement – it is the parent’s anxiety response that is driving everything (anxiety about losing the relationship included).
    There’s also a cultural ‘we’ boundary there that we’re not equipped to deal with well (the ‘if you are hurt, I bleed’ issue). We identify strongly with the child, see All Value in the child, and can’t pull back … what I have called the Adoration stage. Getting to real, functional, NOT-starry-eyed love means accepting the rough spots in the child, and separating our self-worth from the child’s experience of life. The willingness to beat ourselves up (and the experts all providing fodder for that) pushes towards ‘we’re responsible’ for everything, and the child is more of a doll/puppet in that game. Which is why I prefer to say ‘they were born that way, I just try not to break it’ when people say nice things about my kids. *I* am not responsible for who they are, I am only responsible for teaching them good skills and providing opportunities for them to develop who they are as best they can. Which requires chances to test out the skills, too, which includes ‘what happens when I’m hurt’ and ‘can I handle an emergency’.
    That said, as much as I have seen helicoptering results (college student in the grocery store first week of school, on cell phone, staring at the cereal on the shelves: “Mom? Yeah. I’m at the store. What kind of cereal do I like?” Hello? Not even ‘what’s the brand I eat’, but what do I *like*… yowch)… as much as I’ve seen that all over campus, I don’t actually know any of those parents. I haven’t seen helicoptering past the very early toddler stage. So either I can’t spot it up close and personal, or I just peer select to a different group. So my insight is likely to be weak as a result.
    Anyway, overdeterimined (many factors all pushing one way) – and impulse control or anxiety override of common sense, same result. Or just lack of teaching of common sense, too. Parental skills required, and sometimes we have to grow those ourselves, on the way.

  4. By nature, I’m a control freak. Having a child has been a pretty rough learning curve for me. Now that she’s 2 and feeling her way toward independence, I’m FINALLY learning to pick my battles. Instead of controlling the situation just because I can, I’m learning to give her choices when they’re called for and freedom when I can so that when I simply must say ‘no’, it carries some weight.It’s an absolutely beautiful thing to watch her learn to run without fear of the inevitable falls. Even better, she gets up from said falls with a huge grin and keeps on running just for the joy of being included in the game.
    It’s HARD to let her fall, but it is absolutely worth it.

  5. I’m a bit of a control freak, too, so it’s hard for me to take a big step back. But I’m aware of it, at last, so I’m taking baby steps.S is going on 21 months, and yesterday we went to a festival and she played in the fountains, and I tried to make her circle a little bigger. It got easier, but I still found myself following her closely and keeping her out of the big kids’ way.
    Thankfully my husband is a lot more laid back and she has a healthy balance!

  6. I think some parents feel that if they’re not controlling every moment of their child’s day, they are slacking. They thrive on how hard parenting is and how how much they are working. This signals to others what great parents they are. There’s also a superstitious element; if I worry enough about x, it can’t happen. So worry and involvement are the new sacrifices on the alter.

  7. “helicoptering is about parental self-involvement – it is the parent’s anxiety response that is driving everything (anxiety about losing the relationship included).” As a middle school teacher this is exactly what I see most often. I had a parent, sans child, come and look at his exam after school was out crying, “his spirit is broken” and “I’m losing my child”. It had nothing to do with helping the child learn from his exam (hence he wasn’t even there), but mostly to do with her trying get some information to talk to him about. Her son is maturing and she is not prepared for it or willing to allow it to happen. Frustrating as a teacher.I think my message on Meet the Teacher night this year is what @Cathy said, “the hardest thing to do is let your kid fail”, but it is the most important, because isn’t that when they learn the most? Granted you are there to help them. And especially for middle school students. That is the best time to fail, when the stakes aren’t high.

  8. To me, it’s just hard to assess the risk of things, especially as my daughter quickly navigates through different phases of her development. She’s bold & has great gross motor skills and interest in them. I try to stand back, but I’m not always sure how badly she could get hurt in certain instances, partly because I never got hurt as a kid (physically) because I was not physical at ALL. I don’t know enough other kids to know what a good age is for her to climb up the stairs to the slide by herself. I try to step back because I really do believe she needs to explore for herself. What seems like stepping back, to me, might be helicopter-y to the next mom on th playground.In terms of social interaction, though, I let her fly with it, even letting her handle conflict herself. So I faced a new struggle last week at a children’s museum, where another kid, probably 3-4, was negotiating who got which Brio trains with my 16 month old. They were both doing fine, and my daughter looked frustrated maybe once or twice, but the other mom had to step in and make it a teaching point about sharing for her kid. These lines are what’s hard to understand for helicopter parenting… yeah, we should teach our kids good values, but I also want my kid to have good confidence and negotiation skills. So I kind of felt like a less-good mom because I wasn’t stepping in to teach a big moral lesson over the trains. So my point is… I guess that it’s all relative? You might think it’s about impulse control, but I think it’s more about levels of acceptability. Different parents just have different barometers for what they think is dangerous or rude, so they step in at different times.

  9. I think it is high time to stop treating parenting as a competitive sport, acknowledge there is more than one way to skin a cat, more than one way to parent, and different families have different styles, priorities and needs and that is OK.

  10. I am trying very hard to let go of the control. I have always been in control with the girls because they are twins and I couldn’t handle the stress if I was out of control. But now, I see they need a leash.This year at the pool the girls can go in on their own. It is fine. I sit right by the side and they can do their own thing, play, swim, make friends. I do however get super nervous and made rules and have to remind them for safety sake. However, they made a friend and they all started screaming and well…my instinct was to tell them to STOP IT. But I let the screaming go. I am in a place where I am starting to see they need to foster their own friendships/identity and at 5 it feels like the right time.

  11. Amen @enu – “it is high time to stop treating parenting as a competitive sport.” Can we please stop with the mis-labeling? “Helicopter parent”? Such an ugly label.And what do we really think it means? Whatever the NYT tells us it means?
    Consider this: would it be ok if our child called another kid a “helicopter kid,” based on critiques of his parents our child accidentally overheard us engaging in?
    When we put the “helicopter parent” label on someone based on what we THINK we know about their parenting based on a few interactions, we are actually judging them, and in the process reinforcing some really problematic ideas of ‘parenting as competition.’ I know you’re probably well-intentioned and thoughtful, but I suppose I’m just tired of the labels and the global judgment. End rant.

  12. But the thing about helicoptering, is that it’s not just the physical safety stuff, it’s EVERYTHING. I think it’s understandable that a parent would be cautious with a 2-year-old playing in a fountain. Yes, the worst that will probably happen is a fall and maybe a bump on the head, but it makes sense for a parent to want to avoid a physical injury to their very young child if at all possible. The real problem is what educators like me and Aaron above see and what Moxie stated: the parents just want to be involved in EVERYTHING going on in the child’s life and do not allow the child to make any decisions or stand up for themselves about anything. I worked as a counselor at a college for a year and all day I was answering phone calls from parents that basically went like this: “Sorry I can’t tell you anything about junior’s grades or financial aid status. He’s an adult and that information is private. If he’s having a problem, I’d be happy to meet with him and figure out what’s going on so we can get him back on track.” The parents would be absolutely livid! When I went off to college, I handled everything on my own. My financial aid was screwed up every semester like clock work and yet I managed to figure out the system. How about the hiring managers who are hearing from Mommy & Daddy after junior’s interview, wanting to know how he did and did he get the job? I don’t know if people who don’t come into contact with these types of parents on a regular basis really realize how bad it is. They are crippling their children. Life is hard, how are they going to handle anything if parents swoop in to save them from everything?

  13. But there thing is that style of parenting doesn’t work well. We know that. And it affects all of us. Why not try to figure out how to stop it like we stop doing other things we know don’t work well?

  14. Since my son is on the spectrum, I know I helicopter more than other parents “think” I should. I worry he will hurt another child and not understand what he did. He is 99 percentile for height and he just turned 3. People tell me he looks 4.5. He is strong and fast and big.Because he “looks” normal, I get some looks on the playground because I am by him and narrating for him. Helping him through his possible overload. Helping him to interact because he doesn’t know why other kids are talking to him.
    Gross motor wise, I let him fall. I let him skin his knee. He has skinned knees now from jumping off the wall in my yard. He can ride a bike. He can climb fast and is very confident with his body.
    So, how do I manage parents who are on the phone and not noticing that their kids are scaring the crap out of my son? I understand that kids need to work things out. But, my son can’t do that yet. I am there trying to explain to your child why my son won’t look at him or answer questions.
    @hush @enu…I totally agree. Since I had my son, I don’t judge anyone anymore. We need to parent the best way for our own child. I can’t know in 10 minutes why you are doing what you are doing.

  15. As a teacher of both high school and college students, I have seen more “helicopter parenting” than I want, and how as Moxie said, it does not teach the young adult to advocate for him/herself. It used to anger me to no end. Now that I’m a parent to an almost 2 year old, I can see how parents get there. I am working hard to “let go” in the moments that I know she will not be in physical danger if I do, but it really isn’t easy. I always thought that because I was a teacher, I’d be able to spot those moments more easily, but it’s so much more difficult with your own child. I realize now that these so called “helicopter” parents are doing it out of what they believe is best for their child; they’re probably also not aware that their child doesn’t need them the way that they used to. I find myself still “babying” my daughter at times, and after a while I realize that she doesn’t need (or necessarily want) me to parent as I did six months ago, because she’s learned a lot of new skills since then. As a teacher, I was removed enough from my students that I could see the bigger picture, but since I’m with my daughter all day every day, the changes aren’t always as obvious until they’ve already happened. I used to think that teaching would somehow prepare me for parenthood…but nothing prepares you for the fierce love and protectiveness you feel for your baby, and for having to keep those strong emotions in check.

  16. Does anyone else think that maybe/possibly the phenomenon of helicopter parenting might (and I emphasize “might”) be linked to attachment parenting? I think there is a tremendous emphasis now, which is very positive, on fulfilling your infant’s needs. Generally what this can translate to is stopping/preventing crying. If we are encouraged and naturally programmed to soothe and comfort, along with judged now if our child cries how does one turn that off and not instantly run to their 2 year old that has tripped and fallen?

  17. I agree that it’s one aspect, particularly in that moment – ‘do I intervene or not’ can be a pretty tricky question to answer quickly.I also think that there is still pressure on largely women, but all parents, to control the OUTCOME. And picking on helicopter parents is just one more way we give parents the message:
    If you would just parent right, everything would be okay.

  18. I think the helicopter parent has become a strawman in many ways. So few parents are so extreme to prevent their kids from falling off the jungle gym and calling their child’s boss on their first day of work. It’s all judgment calls and I love Ask Moxie for being the place we come to just be moms doing the best we can, not super moms.I can be as judgmental as the next person, but I’ve been trying to not let that side out. As my kids are at each other’s throats, I was sort of wishing I had a bit more helicopter parent in me so I had a plan and direction for them. I don’t think I am “teaching” them anything useful about life or relationships by letting might always equal right.

  19. Love this from @hedra: “They were born that way. I just try not to break it.” I will totally use that, because I find it really uncomfortable to figure out what to say when people give *me* lavish compliments about my kid (especially in front of the kids, who is the one who, say, sat quietly through a church service, or learned to read at an advanced level).And I agree that the term “helicopter parenting” is one I find perjorative and unhelpful. Yes, Moxie, not giving your kids *enough* space to make and learn from their own mistakes and practice making their own decisions *is*, perhaps, a style that doesn’t work well. But “not enough” is not a concrete line, over which none of us should cross. Every kid is different. Every kid’s need for autonomy is different (and it changes at different ages and stages). I know I’ve been criticized at both ends of that spectrum (allowing too much — my rule at the playground is that if you can get up there, you can be up there, and when my little monkeys were even littler monkeys, I know there were parents that felt strongly that I was irresponsible for allowing them as much freedom as I did; allowing not enough — my daughter, until age 5+, was extremely, extremely unwilling to be separated from me, and I cannot tell you the number of times that I was told in no uncertain terms that I was coddling her by allowing her to stay with me and leave on her own terms.)
    And lastly, @enu and @hush, you are *right on*. Parenting has become the last great totally acceptable place to flaunt how very much better you are than another person because of your choices and it is so. very. tiresome.
    Guess what? I’m the best parent I have the time, energy, knowledge, skill and good luck I know how to be. Sometimes that’s a lot better than others, and it serves me well to remember that pretty much everybody else is in the same boat.

  20. @MLB- An interesting hypothesis. I can see where you’re coming from. I think so many parents feel so insecure and unsure of what they’re doing that they overcompensate by helicoptering. I have a 10 month old and ended up doing a lot of A.P. practices with him, not because of any specific belief system but because that’s what works for my baby. The principle behind A.P., at least from the limited reading I’ve done, is to follow your child’s lead. The idea is that by practicing A.P. you are in fact fostering your child’s independence by giving them a strong sense of security and trust within their relationship with their parent(s). I’m sure many parents practicing A.P. will tend to coddle or overprotect but I think the majority feel secure enough in their relationship with their children to step back and give their kid some independence.

  21. @laura. Ouch–that hit home. There are still times that I feel guilty if I’m not spending my full attention on S most of the day. It’s better now, but it was sheer hell the first few months. I was totally unprepared as to how I was going to feel about parenting–I felt overwhelmed with the responsibility, frustrated that S wasn’t following “the books”, tired, stumped, you name it.I didn’t thrive on how hard it was, though. I was sinking under the pressure I was putting on myself. It’s an interesting topic to bring up here. I often wonder if I was alone in feeling that way.
    And I agree with enu–we’re all just trying, trying, trying to do our best…

  22. I have a half-formed thought in my head, about how society changes the rules on parents midway through. So early on, you’re a “bad” parent (OK, really a “bad mother”) if you don’t drop all of your other interests and focus 100% on the kid- look at the ongoing narrative about mothers who work outside the home, look at the pressure on parents to get their kids in a bunch of classes outside of day care/school, etc., etc.So, a “good mother”, in this narrative, is one who has basically subsumed her life into that of her kids.
    And then, at some point, we expect mothers to just switch off that focus and pull back, lest they become “helicopter parents”. Is it surprising that some people have a hard time doing that?
    To me, it is more of the “you can’t win- we’ll judge you no matter what you do” BS that seems to be swirling around motherhood right now.
    I agree that there are parents who are probably erring on either extreme of protecting their kids. But I think that to the extent that we’re now seeing more overprotective parents, that our societal expectations on mothers in the earlier years may be partially to blame.
    But, like I said- these are half-formed thoughts. I tried posting on it on my own blog a while back, too, but I still don’t feel like I’ve fully pinned down what I’m thinking on this subject.

  23. This is why I call myself a “commercial airliner parent.” I hover, but from a really, really, really high distance. 🙂 My sons will fail at some things, but I want them to know that I am there for them in the background if and when they need me.

  24. @mlb, I think that people who practice attachment parenting are ultimately far more “free range” than other parents and that’s the point: babies and very small children securely attach to their parents so that they have the confidence to become independent sooner than other children. IME, parents who attachment parent coddle their children far less than those who don’t.And I don’t feel guilty about judging some of that Helicoptering behaviour and labelling it as such because it is so deeply damaging. It infantalises children so thoroughly that it damages society as a whole. Our job is to prepare our kids to be competent adults. It’s not to shelter them from difficulty.
    I think I can judge the behaviour without judging the person. I feel sorry for those parents who are so full of anxiety they can’t let their kids walk a block or two to a friend’s house or who are so afraid of conflict they placate their children’s every whim. I think their actions are horrible but I feel bad that they move through the world with so much fear.
    We are big on natural consequences. My mum used to nag at my children as toddlers: “don’t touch the oven door!” I used to tell her: “Mum, I WANT him to touch the oven door, feel the heat and then realise that he doesn’t want to touch it again because it hurts.”
    I don’t mind if they fall and hurt themselves. I don’t rescue kids who “climbed too high” on the monkey bars or can’t figure out how to get out of the tree they climbed into. It might make me seem like a mean mom but if you got up there, you can get down and the act of figuring it out or pushing past your idea of what you can and can’t do is what makes you smarter and more competent. I WANT that for my kids. I WANT my kids to walk out to the car with no jacket on in a snowstorm. The next time I ask them to put their coat on they will because they’ll know that it sucks to be cold. If I just harrass my kids into behaving they only know one lesson: if I do this thing, Mom will stop carping at me about it.

  25. Was some of the impetus for this post this recent article in the Atlantic? http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/07/how-to-land-your-kid-in-therapy/8555/1/ It’s an interesting read.I’m also noting the contrast between those who work with older kids/young adults and those who are talking about meeting their very young child’s needs. One thing that I wonder – I don’t exactly know how to put this – is whether we aren’t all, to one degree or another, trying to match our children’s every day experience to a nostalgic ideal of a happy childhood that is actually filtered through the lens of memory. Even if that happy childhood wasn’t the one we had, we saw other people’s but not completely.
    Personally I try to err toward the low end of helicoptering despite being overeducated and anxious by temperament, and I credit a couple of things with helping me: #1, a montessori preschool with a kickass director who refused to make parents the focus of her work. She had to set strong rules (you can only stay for 5 mins in the morning, etc.) and make herself mostly unavailable at drop-off and pickup (though of course she was available and proactive for any major issues)…and forgo adopting elementary school style practices like written reports and parent conferences but she trained me and others to let the hell go. And kids absolutely thrived in her program and came out as really independent, confident 5-year-olds. Then, #2 going to an elementary school where the upper middle class (my own cultural background) isn’t the dominant group. Being in the midst of wonderful parents who just don’t have the time/energy/inclination to worry that much about “parenting” (remember, that wasn’t a word when we were kids?) has been extremely instructive for me. If I had level set my kid’s needs by only watching her among the families in my fairly fancy neighborhood, it would have been easy to see her as needing all kinds of things from me that she doesn’t, when I see her in context of her less fancy school friends. For me, the lower level makes sense, so I call that the “actual” need. But I could totally be wrong. If any of that makes sense.
    And I’ll be honest, I do judge. Maybe this is ugly to admit, but I don’t want Mouse growing up among overparented kids, and I don’t want to be on committees with their parents. Probably each of us would say that, and each of us would set the level differently, but I do actively pick schools, camps, and activities to avoid the stereotypical helicopter parent. Does anybody else do that?

  26. The term doesn’t bother me. It’s useful shorthand for temptations in parenting to which we are all subject, myself included; so I don’t use it necessarily in describing the whole of another person, because obviously I can’t know everything about their life and their child, but rather as a way of identifying certain behaviors I want to avoid in myself.I think our general tendencies toward specialization and seeking out expertise in everything – medicine, home decorating, careers, cooking – it all leads to a culture in which you then expect yourself (and others) to be an expert in life generally. The whole idea of there being parenting “experts” is ridiculous to me, but once you put that expectation on yourself, I believe over-parenting/helicoptering/whateveryouwanttocallit can be the result.
    I’m trying hard to avoid all that, but it’s a million choices every day to do so, and it’s hard.

  27. Formulating my “AP hypothesis” for @MLB: the attached child should come TO YOU, the parent, when they need you. It is about the child being attached to you, instead of the other way around.You the parent are the fixed object, as it were, the solid and steady rock, and they orbit you, bounce off of you, etc.
    I feel like that is the ideal. When they are tiny, the orbit is obviously very small, but as they grow in size, skills and confidence they travel farther from you. You are always there to give support. It gets harder when they spend more time away from you because you can’t necessarily “see” into everything they are doing (because of the “distance”): school, friends, etc.
    /hypothetical
    In terms of my own kids, I have had to deal with them in different ways. My first has a really hard time reading other people (body language, etc.) and sometimes needs modeling in terms of interactions. Less so over time–now she is 7. The second I am more likely to leave alone to figure stuff out. Now that they are fluent in a second language (I am not there yet), even more likely that I will let them hash out their interactions with other kids. But I will sometimes have to remind them of our touchstone rules–#1 Be safe #2 Be kind–and be a hardass and remove them from fun situations sometimes if they’re not listening.
    Is that helicoptering? I am hoping to raise kind, respectful human beings. It takes intervention, on occasion. Will I let them fail? Sure. Will I give them advice? Sure. Do I know they will not always take it? Yes. But if other people stand to get hurt, I am much more likely to insert myself in the scenario.

  28. @Leanne, natural consequences will not always work for my daughter. She will suffer the same punishments over and over rather than change her behavior. At least at home. Personality is a huge trump card.

  29. Thanks to @ hush. It is a negative label to me. The Helicopter Parent one. I hover vigilantly and all the time.Because I have to. Not because my 3.5 year old is a Perfect First Born, another one of those labels, or because I feel she needs me to deal with any small conflict. Physically, climbing etc. in the playground she’s plenty adventurous.
    But she has severe eczema and is anaphylactic to dairy, egg, peanut, bell peppers and strawberries. She looks just fine. But she’s too young to do her skin care, and without the skin care her skin infects and bleeds, and although she’s naturally cautious like many allergic children, she can’t recognise allergens once they’re cooked and in something.
    So yes, I’m controlling. As in any event, location I need to plan what food will be there, what she can eat, what I can bring. I wipe tables and playground equipment that are food-stained before she uses them.
    I’m there with the Epipens. She’s started at Montessori preschool and it’s going all right, but we clearly get extra attention. All staff know her from her picture on the wall where the medicines are kept.
    I’m the spoilsport.
    Other parents see something different in that. That I’m helicoptering, hovering, bullying the school, currying favour etc. etc. Because she looks normal.
    She does help with her skin care routine, and she is learning about the foods and the Epipens and all that. Once she’s older she’ll need to be independent sooner in some ways than other children. And I’m sure I’ll die a thousand deaths once she takes her gap year adventure or starts college.
    But love is in the letting go. Both the eczema society here and the anaphylaxis one have leaflets about letting go for parents.
    I’m not saying every over-involved parent has a child with special needs of course.
    But it’s easy to slap a label on if you see over-protective seeming behaviour.
    I do realise that I loom large as a figure over DD. As a wise man observed about his overbearing, controlling but loving mother he got everywhere in life because of her and despite of her. It’s the card DD has been dealt.
    Sorry about the rant.

  30. @stephanie – I too am going to go with the “commercial airliner parent”.I think for the first time I kind of felt that Ask Moxie had a “wholier that thou” post. Maybe it struck me that way because I tend more in the helicopter parenting direction. Highly possible.
    I have twin boys. I do want them to experience life but I don’t want them to get maimed, hurt each other (or someone else) so badly they wind up in the hospital or God forbid, kill themselves. And, the later worry may be the ultimate reason for the fact that I tend toward the helicopter parenting… who knows. Maybe my boys are too much a part of my world but that is what it is. I love them and can’t imagine losing one. Things are going to happen, I know… I know they will realistically wind up in the hospital at least once if not more since they are very active boys, but that doesn’t mean I don’t want to do what I can to prevent that. So, yes, when we are at a playground, if they are being stupid, I’m going to step in and tell them not to do something. I don’t think that makes me a bad parent. It doesn’t mean I think anyone that doesn’t is a bad parent – it is just that we have different approaches. Neither is better.

  31. @enu and @hush: thank you.This post is really striking a negative chord with me. I read this blog for generally thoughtful insights into parenting. Moxie, your statement “…we all had those fears, but what separated us from the actual helicopter parents is that we have impulse control and the helicopter parents don’t”–well, that’s not your most sensitive moment.
    I simply don’t think one should judge another parent being protective of a child on a playground. If it’s bothering you, move away. Or ask a question of the parent, in a friendly way. You may be surprised to learn that a normal looking kid actually has major neurological issues, has gone through years of therapy for motor-planning issues (can’t figure out how to put a foot on the right spot on a ladder), low muscle tone (extremely poor grasp that tends to fail in times of stress), and is non-verbal in times of stress (apraxia of speech). The kid in question looks happy and healthy, and really just wanted to try to climb something that other five year olds can. But unattended, he can have a devastating fall (and has, ending up in a hospital, thanks to a non-vigilant mother-in-law). Believe me, a bad fall on the head is the last thing a child with neurological issues needs.
    So, perhaps don’t judge quite as much the next time you see a parent watching a child carefully. I actually use my “impulse control” to reserve judgments about my friends and what they do with their kids.

  32. As usual Moxie nailed it.The feelings to jump in and rescue, aka helicopter parenting, don’t ever really go away. Your job as a parent is to decide if your feelings are really alarm bells going off, or a signal, an opportunity to learn how to hold back in spite of the overwhelming feelings to rescue.
    True alarm bells to rescue are different than alarm bells to get involved or control a situation. When faced with what to do, ask yourself one question: What happens if I wait it out and let my child handle this for herself?
    If the answer is anywhere close to: “She may get hurt.” Then jump in and help.” If the answer is, “She may learn to help herself.” Then wait and see what she does.
    I think that question is the key to parenting.
    Everyday your child will do something different, and every day you will have to decide if this is a lesson for your child, or for you, or for you both.
    That’s just my take on it.

  33. I see Wendy Mogel and the recent article in The Atlantic have already been mentioned, which I totally agree apply here.I think there’s a HUGE difference between protecting your 3-year-old from life-threatening situations (falling in a swimming pool, allergies to foods) and calling your 20-year-old’s college library to complain about a fine (yes, I worked in my (tier 1 liberal arts) college library; yes, parents called on behalf of their kids). I think the greatest point made in the above-mentioned article is that if you’re constantly telling your kid that he’s great at everything (even if he isn’t) and constantly rescuing him from situations he *should* be able to work out for himself, then you’re doing him a disservice in the long run. What happens when he finally does get out into the “real world” and there isn’t somebody standing behind him all the time and patting him on the back for doing his job?
    Protecting his safety and his life is different from protecting him from “failure,” like losing at basketball or getting a C- on a history test. I always make sure both my kids are securely strapped into the car in their respective car seats (I’m anal about it, in fact), because getting hurt in a situation like a car accident (G-d forbid!) is not something they can control. But if my 4.5-year-old son is running and not looking where he’s going and trips over something, well, that’s something he should have been more careful about, and maybe he’ll remember next time. I’m not going to be there running behind him watching the ground for rocks and balls so that he shouldn’t trip.
    In the end, though, I see how super-important it is for them to form a secure attachment early on. My younger son (2.5) is SO independent and confident, and while some of it (thanks Hedra) is just how he was born, I do think I can credit the fact that he almost never left my side for the first year or so of his life, that he knew that Mommy was there, so that he could expand his own circle and run back when he ventured a little too far for his comfort. My older son I was maybe not as “with” all the time (he was in daycare from 4 months), and I see him as more insecure and less willing to go off and explore and try new things. (And…Mommy guilt!)

  34. When I describe my parenting style, I somewhat pejoratively call myself a helicopter parent. On the playground continuum, I think I hover more, interfere more, worry more than other parents. I don’t think it’s one of my finer qualities, and because it’s more about me than my kids (for instance, they don’t have @Wilhelmina’s daughter’s terrifying allergies or anything like that), it’s something I am working on. Most of the time, my kids do better when I interfere less.That said, I think all the recent stories about how today’s parents are screwing up our kids are bullsh*t–chief among them the piece in The Atlantic @Charisse linked to above. How did having your child seek therapy at some point in the future become such a tragedy?

  35. @Jacquie, I don’t agree with everything in the article, but I don’t think its point is that having your kid seek therapy is a tragedy. It’s that having your kid be miserable, especially after putting tons of effort into what you assume will make them happier, is a tragedy. As one of the kids quoted in the article says, his parents would be relieved that he went to therapy if he wasn’t happy, just disappointed as well, *because they invested so much in trying to make him happy* and his awareness of that was another factor in his unhappiness.@Jessica, I think that for many of us, there’s a line *somewhere* between being protective of a 3-year-old on a playground and calling about a 20-year-old’s library fine. That part is easy. But where it is probably different for each of us. I think it’s interesting that a bunch of people on this list assumed that those of us who don’t like “helicopter parenting” (I’m not backing off of that – I do judge, I’m not sure I should but I’ll own it while I do) would disapprove of their particular parenting. Most of your examples sound like things that wouldn’t trigger helicopter to me, but the fact that I’m presuming to say so is obnoxious too. Ugh. It was certainly easy for me to say “yay me, I try not to helicopter” in this context, so I want to apologize for that moment of inappropriate self-congratulation. Maybe a better question than when/where do you start backing up (since between 3 and 20, we have to somewhere wherever our personal line is) is, how do you start backing up? If and when you realize it’s time to, and if (as certainly happens to me) you might be inclined to not back up.

  36. @Jessica–I also worked a circ desk at a college library and did receive a phone call like that! And their kid was a little sh#it who basically stole all the out-of-print Vito Acconci books, the bastard. It was years ago; I’m still pissed.Where was I? One time a friend and I were standing about 20 feet away from some elevators. This mom lost it with her kid, and spoke really sharply. It was pretty bad, her anger. They got on the elevator, the door closed. There was a pause. My friend turned to me and said, “I’m going to assume that woman is not usually like that.”
    I don’t know. It’s hard. I know “helicoptering” parents are really out there, but I have to sort of categorize them with all that other crap the media wants us to get worked up about: tiger mamas, mommy wars, “genderless” children.
    I’ll cut you a break if you do the same for me.

  37. I want to know where the line is. I’ve said it before, but if you don’t have a good parental role model, how do you know how much interaction and parenting is appropriate? I’ll say it: I need help.I try not to helicopter and compared to NYTimes parents, I probably don’t, but I seem to be more involved to the minutia when it comes to school than a lot of other working moms (but less so than SAHMs). So, where is the right level? Do I need to know what math unit skills the kids are working on? Do I need to know the names of the kids in his class? Should I make a request to the principal for a specific teacher for next year (1st grade)?
    Is he old enough to cross our side street and walk to the bus stop by himself? How about stand in the next aisle over at Target without me? Go into a men’s room at the library by himself? Is he old enough to answer the phone when I am outside weeding the garden? Should he even be in the house by himself when I’m outside? Can he use the microwave on Saturday morning to get oatmeal? Can he use the toaster? And on and on. I am just not sure what should be allowed, what I should be encouraging, how much I should interfere.
    My own parents were for the most part benignly neglectful, but maybe that’s another way of saying free-range parenting. Maybe that neglect is the reason I am uber-independent and competent today. Maybe it’s also the reason I tend to helicopter (though I try to rein it in when even I think I am being too involved). I didn’t like the feeling of being out there on my own and want my kids to have security to fail with me there to come back to.

  38. I am so over the labeling too. Fortunately (for the moment anywya) I don’t live in a country that gives two hoots about labeling parents. And quite frankly I am happy to remain ignorant. I am all of the above.

  39. @cloud – Amen.So much pressure these days, so much of it directed at mothers. What irks me the most is that it all makes it sound as if we somehow controlled the outcome, and if we did everything right, they’d turn out perfect. Where “right” is often defined, at least for moms, as abandon-all-for-kids when they’re young and stay-the-hell-out-of-the-way-already when they’re older.
    We live in a time where just about any personal failing is automatically traced to the parenting we received. Add to this that parenting has also become somewhat of a spectator sport recently, and we’re all Monday morning quarterbacking the mother in the supermarket line behind us, even though, you know, we’ve only seen the two minutes immediately before half-time. It’s no wonder the urge to step in and control all things in our kids lives is so great.
    That said, I don’t draw a straight line between being behind the three-year-old on the monkey bars and calling the college professor to complain about a bad grade. And I don’t think that all that is dismissed as “helicoptering” is driven by the same motive. There’s the visceral fear or physical harm coming to our children; there’s the reliving and projection of our own childhood hurts and disappointments; there’s the feeling that their shortcomings are somehow our own failures. Moxie is right to start a conversation about how we can identify these motives in ourselves and reign them in when they get out of hand thereby giving our children, and ourselves, room to breathe and room to grow. But using the term “helicopter parenting” isn’t helpful, in my opinion.
    @hedra – “they were born that way, I just try not to break it” — Brilliant! I need to remember that.

  40. I think the big thing about “helicoptering” is age. It’s ok to step in when your child is small. We all have different comfort levels and we need to respect that. When they are in college, they need to be on their own. No calling the professor for them. As someone who has taught many, many freshman, I think they need to find out as early as possible that what they are pursuing is really what they want, and not what parents want. Most of the students that I have fail don’t fail because they aren’t capable. It’s because they don’t put in the effort.

  41. I read that Atlantic article as just another attempt to sow discord in parental circles, along the lines of their breastfeeding article a year or so back. The “anonymous” preschool teacher who laments she can’t just tell kids to “knock it off” rather than having to talk through their feelings and help them come up with solutions? Struck me as someone probably needing a new career direction rather than someone I want to take parental advice from. Oy, venting.I don’t take Moxie’s post the same way. This is a good discussion, and a balance I’m watching in myself as a mama, although my daughter is only 2 and the issues are fairly simple. I know it only gets harder.
    The only time the term helicopter parenting bugs me is when my mom says it, although I think that’s another issue.
    This whole discussion brings to mind this scene in the movie Greenberg: http://www.imdb.com/video/screenplay/vi2920089369/

  42. @SarcastiCarrie thanks for providing a child’s view of your parents’ “free-range” parenting. Obviously, not all kids are going to feel like you did, but it helps to remember that not all kids are necessarily going to WANT so much independence, either. I was certainly a more cautious child, and can recall getting into arguments with my parents because I didn’t want to ask the sales clerk where to find the toy I wanted or go up to the restaurant counter to ask for a balloon. Occassionally, I missed out because I wasn’t bold, but I found my own independence in time, and actually moved out on my own at 19.Man, I’ve written and rewritten my own comments a bunch of times and still can’t articulate what I want to say on this topic. Will have to muse it over some more.

  43. @Rbelle – yes, I’ve definitely seen a few kids with very hands off/free range kind of parents (like @SarcastiCarrie’s benign neglect) who really *need* more interventions; they need more structure, more help, more guidance. And they don’t get it, and they suffer (usu. with unaddressed behavioral problems.)So I think part of the trick is making sure you are the parent your child needs, not the parent you think you should be. It’s very easy to either repeat or react to the parenting we ourselves experienced as children without reflecting on whether or not that’s appropriate for our own kids. And of course, their needs will differ (if you have more than one). What I see as the big danger of unnecessary parental hovering, as in other sometimes harmful parenting modes, is that it’s often an attempt by the parent to fill his/her emotional black holes through a specific relationship with the child (ie, that the child NEEDS mommy/daddy). Of course our kids need us, but as Moxie says, sometimes they need to let them fail or figure it out on their own, etc. I find trying to keep my emotional baggage off my kids one of the most challenging aspects of parenting.
    @Charisse, I just wanted to say that I admire you for being so honest about the judging issue. We all know judging is “bad” and it’s easy to pretend like we don’t do it, just because we sometimes wish we don’t.
    Otherwise, I give the big middle finger to the Atlantic and the NYT for their “coverage” of “parenting”/”women’s” issues. (Because of course the meta to all those stories is – mommies, you suck and are ruining the children!)

  44. I’m not going to say the helicopter parenting is not a real phenomenon, but I can’t help but think that the real problem is our society’s obsession with using parents for target practice. If the kid falls off the monkey bars and breaks an arm, the parent was neglectful. If mom or dads says, “Get off the monkey bars. You’re not being safe,” they are helicopter parents. We’re overly permissive if our children dare to annoy a coffee shop patron with a raised voice, but we’re too controlling if we actually attempt to manage their behavior. I feel like crying “Uncle!”to all the experts out there with their labels. Bulls eye, already. You’ve nailed us. From every conceivable angle. Can we just get on with doing the best we can by our kids? (Yes, I’ll stop ranting now)

  45. @ T., I have a bit of a theory about that, which is that now that having children is (supposedly at least) a “choice”, people are much more critical. When it was something that pretty much everybody ended up doing whether they wanted to or not, there was more sympathy and parents were less inclined to hold themselves to crazy standards (but maybe less good treatment of kids overall in some respects). I think this plays into how we approach it too, perhaps most among the more privileged demographics where it’s more likely to be a genuine choice but where all these various divisions are fought so fiercely. If it’s something we’re doing intentionally, and often passionately, there’s a huge huge impetus to do it well, but there’s no certainty about what well means so we look for reinforcement. When some authority figure says something other than what we’re doing is best, it can be really jarring. Even if we don’t care about that authority in theory.

  46. Wow, such great comments here. I for one have never seen a working definition of ‘helicopter parents’ so I think we could be talking about very different things without realizing it. Of course we would all agree that it’s not appropriate to call your grown child’s professor or employer, but that’s so obvious. SarcastiCarrie brings up such excellent points about all the gray area in the middle. And if we can all so easily agree that infants develop skills differently and at different times, why can’t we agree that a mom you think is helicoptering her 7 year old might be doing what her 7 year old needs at that time. Your 7 year old may have different strengths and weaknesses that allow you to be more hands off. That’s easy to see with the kids that have greater physical needs such as the allergy ridden poster above, or my friend whose son had random seizures so she stood under him at the monkey bars but he looked just like everyone else. Some children are slower to mature, to gain their confidence, etc. and may require more.MLB, I do see what you mean about AP parenting. I say this as someone who supports AP parenting. I understand the goals are to foster a more independent child, and to allow the child to come to you rather than you to her, but surely the complete focus and perhaps greater physical availability that is put out in the first few early years are going to be awfully hard for some people to just shut off as your child gains more skills and is better able to fend for herself.

  47. This topic is so interesting to me, because I find that in my efforts not to helicopter/hover but also not be negligent, I find that there is an underlying assumption that there is some correct balance, correct way of parenting that will result in the ideal outcome. So, over-control – which is what I accuse helicopter parents of! It’s a strange paradox.I think as soon as I take my eye off just doing what I think is best in the moment, and start worrying about the “right” way to do things, what other parents are doing and whether or not I agree with it, etc – I end up feeling derailed and off-balance.
    Basically, I’m saying I struggle with this.
    And for the record, helicoptering is something that really irritates me (but I’m guilty of it in my own way).
    As for theories – my theory on helicoptering is that all of society has become that way and it’s influencing parenting. Because we’ve been able to control so much about our lives and environment, we have an illusion that we can control everything. We can’t accept any risk (e.g. product recalls based on very small risks or improper use) – and we think we need to parent that way too.

  48. This discussion is fantastic, and as someone else said, a great example of why this is the only parenting website I read. Hedra, it’s nice to have you back!Our difficulty in both defining and identifying helicopter parenting reminds me of things I’ve read about “authoritative” parenting, as opposed to “authoritarian” or “permissive” parenting. Authoritative is the good one–loving but setting clear boundaries. So yeah, that sounds great. I’ll just do that. If only I could be sure what it was, and whether I was doing it. Like most people, I would guess, I keep on muddling through and trying to do my best (and not always doing my best, frankly, if I’m tired or distracted).
    I guess my point is, even if we know what the ideal is (and even if we agree on what it is), it’s hard to translate that into a benchmark by which you handle the messy situations of real life, where you’re constantly encountering situations that are new, and responses often seem ad hoc. So, is having the ideal in mind a good thing (sort of a north star to keep you in the right direction), or is it a distraction that makes you feel as though you can never measure up?

  49. It’s not just parents. I recently read _The Teaching Gap_, which talks about a large study of math teaching methods in the US, Japan, and Germany. One thing that struck me was the repeated pattern US teachers had of giving help the instant their algebra students didn’t understand something. Instead of letting students wrestle with a difficult problem, teachers in all settings and income groups routinely leaped in at the first sign of trouble and told students exactly how to solve the problem, then gave them drills of exactly the same problem. In Germany and especially Japan, by contrast, the accepted practice (again, throughout the system) is to deliberately give fewer problems where the actual work is mostly figuring how how to solve the problem.I do think this business of moving toward trust in our parenting roles is fascinating and difficult and immensely dependent on our specific children, but I would have loved to see this discussion started with a spirit of “us” rather than “those awful helicopter parents.”
    For myself, I try to do “i plus 1” parenting with wherever my child is (modified by how much our circumstances allow me to carry it out). Sometimes that puts us on one camp; sometimes in the other. I do think for us, AP has helped us be responsive to where he actually is; as he gets older, I am factoring more in “where I would like him to be,” but I am also finding that many things other people worried about when he was little (how will he ever want to not nurse to sleep? will he ever walk if you carry him?) have simply dissolved and become non-issues.
    Sometimes, as when he was 2 and climbing everything, I got The Look all the time for my negligent parenting.
    Now that we homeschool, I get the occasional helicopter comment for that, although DS exercises considerably more autonomy over what and when and how much he learns with me than he did at public kindergarten.
    I’m also the parent who doesn’t let he 7yo walk somewhere a block away. Too much of a dreamer; I don’t want him walking into an SUV pulling into a driveway because I was supposed to be letting him learn to notice the world. *shrug* But if you let *your* 7yo walk to the park, I’m going to assume it’s because you’ve watched your kid and see a higher level of attentiveness than mine has.

  50. And, yes. I find it difficult to take seriously anything the Atlantic or NY Times says about parenting when pieces like that breastfeeding one, or the parents who pay a second tuition to get tutoring help, so often seem written to stir up mommy wars. It seems a real shame when there is in my mind such a lack of nuanced (judgement-free) journalism about the same subjects.

  51. I missed you guys so much.Couple of other thoughts came up in reading the comments.
    1) Labels are always risky, and are generally used to divide not join.
    2) Attachment parenting can be driven by the parent’s need for attachment, and I wonder if parents who have insecure attachment issues tend to have difficulty managing the transition between ‘I respond always’ and ‘I let them fall’. I had great AP mentors who were very clear that the RESEARCH supports better attachment when the ‘perfect attachment’ fails and is repaired repeatedly. Parents who are ‘perfect’ are abnormal biologically – we’ve evolved to respond optimally to normal parents who cannot be everywhere and do everything, who try, who mess up, who realize too late that they made a mistake and then make an effort to reconnect. Benign neglect leaves off the reconnecting, and over-protecting leaves off the breaking of the ‘perfect’ bond. Kids whose parents are ‘too perfect’ in attachment analysis (effectively anxious attachment on their end) end up emotionally fragile and prone higher rates of PTSD simply because there’s no neurological training that you can have a complete emotional disaster and have everything still come out okay. I’ve quoted that research before and now that I’m looking at it that way (AP lens), it makes complete sense. The problem is the lack of range of experience, not the specifics of the experience. Like with feeding behavior, normal is highly variable, and disordered tends to be rigidly one way all the time (including rigidly/consistently ‘healthy’ as well as rigidly/consistently unhealthy). ANY system of parenting that avoids exceptions in context (‘I always come to the rescue’) is prone to those issues downstream. The normal allowable survivable range is only ‘so much’ and everything else has no skills and no neurological level-set for ‘It will all work out fine’.
    3) For people with food or health issues in parenting (ME! ME!) this is a huge bite-me situation. Because you can’t win for losing on things that you have to be rigid on, thankyouverymuch. For non-life-threatening issues, our specialists recommend allowing a bit of self-driven fail (I sneaked chocolate, and now I’m up all night itching) to give the child a sense of what the boundary is so when they’re teens they KNOW where to draw the line. BUT. That’s not life threatening situations. Or ones that are utter hell for the child in symptoms, as well. And it doesn’t account for personality, either (I have one who will cheat herself VERY sick if given a micron of leeway, and another who will decline even the most wondrous of treats if he doesn’t have confirmation that it is indeed safe – not even ‘probably safe’). I have to be ON with M, and a hardass about it. I can look the other way entirely with B. But.. well, there are other areas of our relationship and life that I allow some fail in, and we’ll have chances later on to develop the skills that didn’t develop earlier.
    … (yeah, killer comment… part 2 incoming!)

  52. 4) Culture matters. I have peers in their late 20’s (married peers) who call their parents to ask which of two apartments to take, whether to buy a TV, and if they should refurnish their apartment. Their parents tell them what to eat, insist on coming to stay with them (and stay for weeks or months), and expect to be able to call the shots on everything. They’re Indian, and this is NORMAL. It is not helicoptering. It is just not American parenting. Asians have a different measure of the baseline assumption, which may be part of what we’re seeing here, too – the baseline assumption of ‘typical American culture’ is that children are naturally dependent and need to be taught to be independent. But Asian cultures tend to think of children as naturally driven to independence, and need to be taught to be reliant on others. If you take that baseline and say ‘this generation tends to think of children as prone to natural progression to independence and exploration (absorption of AP philosophy into the mainstream)’ then the NORMAL reaction to that is going to be to counterbalance it. So … teaching them to rely on adult wisdom and guidance, outside rules (safety!) and structure, etc. It also tends to feed ANY anxiety about losing the connection, because there’s that sneaking suspicion that if we weren’t In There, they’d be long gone, blithely going about their own lives without recognizing how Important relationships and community are.So… I think we just haven’t matured into the new knowledge yet. We haven’t found a way to say ‘hey, humans are hard-wired for BOTH dependence and independence, and we need to teach effective skills for BOTH’.
    Which brings me to:
    5) Competency training can be held to a later age. My mom was pretty free-range with us, and found herself paying for it by having her kids scatter to the winds. She is now training us to relate to each other, to make the connection, to do the annoying, frustrating, and COSTLY work of getting together, staying in touch, and being there for each other. Yeah, we’re headed for the family reunion next week, and yeah, we can’t afford it, but yeah, we are getting how important it is for the next generation to see and know their family (luckily we managed to have everyone be safe to know in this generation!). My mom is intentional about teaching these skills (I say training somewhat in jest, but she’s a bit heavy-handed at times). She also taught us how to be independent adults in a huge surge of directed activity at around 16. How to balance a checkbook, pay bills on time, grocery shop, manage a limited budget, handle our healthcare, deal with authorities and bureaucracies, get a bank account, get a loan, etc. She gave us the scary jobs, and helped us be non-scared by them over time. Tons of coaching and practice. Lots of effort. She’s doing the same with my kids but over a longer span (starting at 12 instead of 16), because she realized it was too much all at once. BUT thinking about it, it is entirely possible to teach these skills ‘all at once’. She took in two homeless high school kids and in six months had them entirely competent to handle their own casework, healthcare, budgets, etc. Zero to 60 in no time flat.
    So why are we worried? Because many parents don’t recognize the seasons of opportunities to develop skills. They miss one season and maybe don’t even realize another is coming. Or they get used to it, and don’t let go, and never notice the resentment building (my Indian peers recognize the value but also resent the imposition – good and bad, no matter what parenting style/culture you come from!).
    We cannot win, but really, we also mainly don’t lose unless we listen to the media too much. Our kids WILL tell us (eventually) what they need. Even the kids who are uber-typical of some extreme may just be representing a different *normal* progress through development. My American peers kick over the traces and rebel in their teens. If their parents are ‘too good to rebel against’ they set their boundaries in parenthood if not in marriage. My Indian peers end up finding what we’d call in American parlance ‘their spine’ (that is, they stop accepting the authority of their parents as a default) when they have kids of their own (though regularly not until those kids are reaching school age).
    Maybe that’s part of why I don’t see ‘helicoptering’ when I look at my peer set. I see that one family really struggles with the idea of physical risk, while another struggles with the idea of psychological/emotional risk, while another struggles with spiritual risk. They set boundaries where their family culture draws the line, and carry on with that. But all of us can get stuck in ruts, and end up parenting the child who is no longer there (having outgrown our parenting) – but it is harder with certain types of kids to tell where that line is, and when they’ve outgrown it, and the more we’re protective of a space the harder it is to see when the child is suffering from too much ‘safe’. Some kids will make it very clear, but most, especially those have learned to be loving, kind, and considerate, will not make a big stink and cause you stress over needing to do things differently. And they won’t know why they don’t, either. And since we’re not teaching subversive social skills like Indian culture does (to handle the social tension caused by the parental extension of control) there’s not a lot of outlet or escape.
    In the end, they’ll still be okay, and by ‘okay’ I mean they’ll be able to afford their therapy. There is no perfect parent, there are only optimal parents, and optimal parents are the ones who face-plant, do their best, fail, try again, mess up again, over and over. And I bet that even applies to 90% of people we ‘think’ are ‘helicoptering’.
    I also highly recommend MotherStyles for the parents who aren’t sure where their boundaries should be, because I suspect that personality type is part of the issue there. It’s okay to be your kind of parent. My kind of parent hates tea parties and is incredibly lecture-prone, but is good at understanding what is going on inside that head and figuring out how to provide opportunities to experience and grow. But not so great on the warm and fuzzy, some days (I have been told that I suck at waking up the kids – by them. Because I just tell them it is time to get up, and epeepunk goes and cuddles with them and is silly.)… but I’m good at other stuff, and between me, ep, grandparents, relatives of various sorts, other caregivers, teachers, peers, and mentors, I think we’ll end up with a lot of range covered. Keep an eye on the skills needed for successful adulthood, provide those skills opportunities at some point before they are actually on their own, and don’t fret too much about whether they ‘land’ in therapy. Everyone with a shred of self-awareness should probably ‘land’ in therapy, no? 🙂

  53. I hate the term ‘helicopter parent’. I hate it as much as all of the other labels put on parents (which I think annoyingly tend to be mostly attributed to mothers). Enough already. I’m totally for discussing the validity of specific behaviours or approaches. But once you start labelling it becomes a kind of all or nothing situation. And that just pigeon-holes people and makes no allowances for specific situations/temperaments. Like anything, it just seems like this is a question of moderation.@enu, @hush @jan @parisienne mais presque: yes. thank you.
    @T & @Cloud: This is it. This is what really bothers me. You just can’t win “To me, it is more of the “you can’t win- we’ll judge you no matter what you do” BS that seems to be swirling around motherhood right now.” Quite frankly, it’s pretty much the only reason Moxie is the only parenting site I read.
    @Sharon: I think this is a very important distinction : “If the answer is anywhere close to: “She may get hurt.” Then jump in and help.” If the answer is, “She may learn to help herself.” Then wait and see what she does.”
    I think that this is the guideline in my head that I’m trying to use in different situations. For sure, I get it wrong sometimes, but I’m trying to be consistent in asking myself the question and to make sure I’m not putting my issues/feelings unnecessarily on DS.
    When I read the following from @Moxie’s post “the rest of us know that kids need to experience things like failure and gravity so they can develop into competent people, so we control the impulse to control the situation.” it rubs me the wrong way because I have a hard time in reconciling that with “If the answer is anywhere close to: “She may get hurt.” Then jump in and help.” Who gets to decide what constitutes a hurt worthy of intervention? There is a lot of grey ground in-between the extremes.

  54. @ Charisse, I have that theory too…glad to see it independently confirmed.I don’t think there’s a line, I think there’s a relationship — and that’s why AP can actually help us not to be helicopter parents. When they’re tiny, you learn how much they can and can’t do, and you *continually* adjust accordingly. And I think it starts from day one, or near it. I mean, when I came home from the hospital after DS’s birth, I kept a “shit list” of every poop, pee, and feeding, because they did in the hospital and they made it seem important. Before long I quit that. And I woke him up and told him when to eat, and “told” him how to latch — and then those were no longer necessary . . . etc. I actually think BFing helps with managing the moving line; it definitely helps with discipline (don’t bit Mommy being one of the first lessons).
    Perhaps some of this is ingrained in me from parenting styles I saw when I was a child and teen: the parent was usually watching in the background, judging whether or not to intervene.
    I think some of helicopter parenting is about an obsession with academic success that’s different from what happens on the playground. Some parents care more about athletics, some about music, other about religion — but most think they need to do whatever they can to ensure their child succeeds academically. That’s a particular cultural quirk that is more about values than about parenting styles. Check out the table of contents for _What’s Going on in There: How the Brain and Mind Develop in the First Five Years of Life_. I had been hoping for a sort of continuation of _The Wonder Weeks_, but no dice: the last three chapters are about Intelligence, Intellect, and “How to Raise a Smarter Child,” — that last is the conclusion, what it’s all about. (I can imagine a publisher pushing for that because it sells . . .)

  55. @Hedra, would you mind sharing some links on that AP research?I was interested to see attachment described as “I always come to the rescue,” because for us AP translates more into, “I respond when I can.” But, meaning, response to everyone’s needs, adults also, even mine, and decreasingly weighted toward the children as they grow more capable; and trying to teach this intentionally as they grow older.
    But, and I guess this is where I depart some from attachment theory, it never made sense to me to do it to foster attachment. That seems almost like a side benefit to responding out of respect and courtesy to a child’s embryonic personhood.

  56. Clarifying – anxious attachment in the parent = I always come to the rescue. Some people with attachment issues themselves are drawn to AP as a remedial family philosophy, so they misapply the concept while trying to manage their own issue. Normal attachment parenting starts with immediate reflective response in early infancy, and moves to more ‘being the home base’ as the child progresses in development.Dr. Alan Schore did a bunch of work on psychoneurobiology of normal attachment and abnormal attachment. I’ll see if his stuff is still up online (it is probably stale by now, but had great interdisciplinary content).

  57. Oh, @Heather, to be clear: your read is actually right for the research. Normal Attachment process is fostered by normal parents being aware of the level the kids can function at (infant cannot solve own problem! toddler can solve some problems. gradeschooler needs to be listened to but not necessarily ‘helped’, etc.) … and gradually incorporating everyone’s needs into the mix in balance. The actual research is often NOT represented well in the social commentary.

  58. I agree both with the sentiment that labeling (“helicopter parent”) isn’t helpful and that even if it were, what it means to be a helicopter parent — beyond the extreme examples — hasn’t been clearly defined either in our culture or by Moxie, so it’s not clear what we’re talking about.That said, @the milliner (and @Sharon) I had something of the same sort of reaction to, “If the answer is anywhere close to: “She may get hurt.” Then jump in and help.” Really? Because the question I find myself asking is, “Is this likely to lead to an emergency room visit?” and if the answer to THAT is anywhere close to yes, then, OK, I jump in and help. I mean — hurt? Just recently my DS (4) was racing on gravel and my DH was yelling at him to slow down and I was shrugging my shoulders and saying (to DH) “Stop that.” Because an excited, energetic 4 year old isn’t going to slow down, and as DH won’t (and shouldn’t) enforce the instruction with the sort of rigor we’d use if we were anticipating an ER visit (e.g. if he were racing toward a road), we shouldn’t be giving instructions that will be ignored. He is going to fall (he did) and scrape his knee on the gravel (he did) and be woefully unhappy about it (he was, briefly). But he’ll also learn. Actually that particular scrape has been quite educational for him — perhaps because of its high visibility; it wasn’t particularly severe — not only (perhaps, fingers crossed) — in terms of learning the downside to racing on gravel, but he’s been fascinated to watch it heal. He must point out to me 10 times a day that the scab is now gone and the skin healthy, and we’ve discussed at length the difference in the sensations of a normal versus a skinned knee (hmmm … maybe I should write a book 😉 ?). So, yeah … I don’t see this boundary (“hurt”) as making much sense.
    @Moxie, more generally, a discussion of what boundaries are usually appropriate in what realms and for what ages might well be quite useful.

  59. @hedra – I love your comparison of Indian/American culture, as someone caught in the middle. Now, if only you could come here and sort out my issues with them since they moved to my town to be near their only grandchild 😉

  60. Helicoptering is all about parental self involvement. helicopter parenting reflects the closeness of today’s young. We are paying a lot of money for our kids to go to school and we want to protect our investment.

  61. Further thought: Does anyone actually think their kids will be happy all the time? This isn’t realistic at all and could be setting them up for disappointment, I guess. Do the kids themselves expect to be happy all the time? Do these parents never show sadness/anger/disappointment in their own lives to model it?Color me confused.
    Something I’ve said more than once: “My job is not to make you happy. My job is to keep you safe.”

  62. @Alexicographer (et al), I’m with you on the ‘ER trip’ being the boundary. I’m a bit prone to saying to the child who arrives home grubby and scraped up – ‘Wow, it looks like YOU had fun today!’ (and not at all in a snarky way… my kids are way more likely to get mildly injured when they’re deeply absorbed in the activity of the moment, really getting into it. And I want them to do that, bandaids and all.) My kids also have sensory processing issues that lead to what the OT/PT folks describe as a tendency to ‘seek activity without regard to safety’. So I work the safety angle hard some days, but it is still at the ‘broken bone/stitches/head trauma’ side (high emphasis on avoiding head trauma).@anonymousketeer, sorry I can’t help with that – I only triage intercultural issues at work (which I actually do for a portion of my job). Family dynamics are soooo much more fraught. Those, I just watch and stay well back from!

  63. Does anyone else find themselves swinging from one end to the other? I think in the past I would hover so much I would burn myself out and then, in my foggy-headed burn out, slack and not step in when I probably should have.Now I’m trying to ask myself whether or not I’m driven to step in just to alleviate my own discomfort. It is a tough line. The article in The Atlantic helped me focus on what my parenting target might be for my son when I send him off to college.
    @mlb I think AP probably does attract a certain subset of parents that cling to their children under the guise of attachment. Following through with the child-led part of AP simply isn’t adhered to because in reality it is more about what the parent is getting out of it than the child.

  64. The Atlantic is a constant source of irritation to me — it trots out old ideas and oversimplifies them in some sort of faint imitation of being controversial.I am reminded of a Lisa Belkin piece for the NYT, in which she said that the discussions of helicopter parents and free-range parents always seemed to to have the same foundation: “There is a right way to parent, and I’ve found it.”

  65. @Kate, I’m personally hopeful that my kids will experience disappointment, heartbreak, injury, outrage, anger, fear, and all manner of unhappiness in relatively controlled conditions (that is, in safe territory), so they will be able to handle it on their own without it fazing them later. So, yeah, definitely not expecting them to be happy all the time! I don’t set them up to fail, fall, or be crushed, but I also don’t think it is bad to fail, fall, or be crushed now and then. Heck, one of the huge deals at work right now is issues around the need to innovate and the majority of workers not being willing to risk a spectacular fail. I’ve done spectacular fails at work. And ya know? Not fun, but get-overable. I hate being mortified, but I also hate being stultified, too. I want my kids to have the courage to take on something nobody else is doing, take it to their clients, and figure out if it will work, and how. I have a huge project tagged to me that has been officially designated with a 10% confidence factor (10% chance of success), which we’re all STOKED about, because it is so cool to bring it in, forge ahead, innovate, and change the conversation. I’m immensely proud of having taken it there, and I think a big part of that is that I’m okay if it fails. I’ve failed and survived and even thrived out of failing. It sucks rocks, and it rocks, at the same time. 🙂 I want that feeling for my kids.So the whole succeed/fail thing also ties back into the discussion of parenting being a ‘succeed/fail’ thing. Only, ya never get to find out if you succeeded. You don’t get to take credit. The kids may give you credit at some point if you are very lucky, but mostly, we’re all just running our own personal social experiments on a too-small sample set with no controls. Not being comfortable failing our kids as parents is also part of that adoration thing again (where we feel the kid is deserving of better than we are or could even dream of being). That’s dandy for about a day. And after that, it’s exhausting, and depressing. Reality is we’re people, they’re people, and we’re all going to mess up, both sides. ‘deserve’ is as useless as ‘should’ and ‘perfect’. 🙂
    Okay, now I’ve gone wandery, off to work for me! (PT day today…)

  66. I’m still reading all the comments, great to see you back Hedra!! I just wanted to chime in and say that this is why I come back here again and again when time is precious and I have too much to do in not enough time. I love having all of your perspectives, your smart and thoughtful comments giving much food for thought. Thank you all for giving me great reminders of how I want to parent, truly inspiring.

  67. I guess I’m wondering why some of the commenters think my observations about helicopter parents (and I don’t see why that’s seen as a negative phrase–it seems purely descriptive to me) are based on 10 minutes of observation on the playground. I’m talking about the parents that I’ve been with for long times, in playgroups and in school, and have seen the same stuff lots of the teachers have described–the inability to let kids have their own lives.We’re not talking about parents of toddlers. (I think we all know the old adage that at 1 you have to be there so they don’t hurt themselves and at 2 you have to be there so they don’t hurt another kid.) We’re talking about parents of older kids–6, 7, 8, 12–who can’t let go.

  68. Oh, and I thought the Atlantic article was kind of alarmist and kind of “duh.” If there was a NYTimes article on this I won’t have read it. It all just seems like part of the way the parenting culture is now. But maybe I do, truly, live in a place in which parents are way more controlling and whatever-you-want-to-say-instead-of-helicoptering.

  69. My dad and his wife looked down their noses at my aunt and uncle (dad’s brother) about the way they raised their 2 girls. My aunt had several miscarriages before having them, and that combined with their general more-granola approach to parenting, led my dad and stepmom to consider them helicopter parents. I didn’t really understand until now- I have an 8 month old. Dad and stepmom tell me to do this, do that, put him in the crib and let him cry, get him on solids asap, etc. The funny thing is these two girls (my cousins) are the most well-adjusted, happy, considerate, smart teenagers I’ve ever known. They are competent decision makers, have great self esteem, just awesome kids. From my perspective my aunt and uncle always treated them respectfully and gave them room to learn and experience at their own pace. I guess what I’m saying is that sometimes what people think is helicopter parenting really isn’t at all. I suppose I’m also defending it because I know myself and I’m going to have a really hard time letting my little boy fall down, hit his head, fail at a task, etc.Oh and don’t let me forget that said stepmom has 3 children, all grown up, and oldest JUST moved out of the house (had never lived on her own before that) and is 27 years old. She had a root canal recently and came right home to be babied by mom. She laid in their bed for an entire day while my stepmom waited on her hand and foot. Now THAT seems like helicopter parenting to me. It’s mutually destructive to both parties. THOUGH I see how the blame game works- I like what PP said about how we are supposed to be heavily involved but then at some arbitrary time we are supposed to be able to step back and relinquish control- and also give up that feeling of being needed.

  70. @Moxie, I can only speak for myself, but I think that since the lead in of the post was in reference to the playground, and not to what you’ve witnessed at school, etc., it was hard not to read the implication that stepping in on the playground = helicopter parent. Also, the fact that it was a very short post meant that the context of your observation left more room for interpretation. The way you just described your reference point is much more specific and for me makes more sense with your observation.For me, I’m much more sensitive to the term helicopter as I’ve definitely felt that some caregivers have thought that me asking questions meant that I was worried/hovering, when infact I’m just trying to get enough info to help my DS through transitions which are hard for him (and not really a big deal to most kids), so that one day he’ll have the tools to manage change & transitions himself. He’s just 3, so yes, a different situation than when he’ll be older.
    Also in reference to what @Hedra and others said about AP, I think there is a lot of general misinformation about the difference between AP and helicoptering. Being criticized for helicoptering, when you’re really AP is annoying.

  71. From wikipedia – “Helicopter parent is a colloquial, early 21st-century term for a parent who pays extremely close attention to his or her child’s or children’s experiences and problems, particularly at educational institutions.”@Moxie – My thought is that a good deal of your readers get here looking for sleep advice. I did. That is not the 6+ age group. (Breast feeding posts still get 100+ comments.) So a lot of moms of the pre-schooler and younger set are feeling the need to defend what is probably normal and healthy parenting behavior of that age group. And bristling at having that behavior labelled anything especially here where the motto is “you are the best parent for your child”.

  72. @Moxie, I assumed you meant what you meant – but of course my kid is school-age like yours. For me it’s things like a parent who was Very Concerned that the after school program couldn’t tell her how her 6-year-old got a big bruise on his knee. That the kid wasn’t upset about. This is someone I know pretty well, and the kid is entirely typically developing. The fact that the parent was just really unsettled not to have this information, even though the kid hadn’t thought enough of the owie to take it to a teacher, was what made it helicoptering for me. (And how the heck anyone could be expected to watch a 6-year-old closely enough to never miss a bruise opportunity is beyond me anyway.) In SF, which may be another weird hothouse environment like NY, there is a fair amount of this. Hence my saying I judge it too.

  73. As far as Moxie’s post goes, I think describing your theory as an “insight” is probably a strategic error, as is the praise you direct to those you deem non-helicopter and the assessment of helicopter parents as people without impulse control.There is nothing new about parents of college students contacting their children’s professors. I got that in the 80s (well, I was a TA, not a professor, but I don’t think that’s why parents were contacting me).

  74. @Charisse & Moxie – I think geography could play a role, though I live in a small east coast town and I’ve seen plenty of parental behavior that I would categorize as helicoptoring/overprotective/whatever you want to call it. And I’m a teacher and see the results of it, too.I get what @themilliner is saying, too. Anybody who asks questions, esp at the doctor’s office, often gets a huge eyeroll – the ohyou’reoneofTHOSEtypesofparents eyeroll.

  75. @mom2boy, EXACTLY. I was flaberghasted at parents here defending themselves for very normal behaviour when raising small children (pre-school age). I have never considered any parent on the playground a helicopter parent for helping their child around the playstructure or doing anything to prevent a fall or getting hurt, but I sure as heck can spot them in the school system.Thanks for posting the working definition. I think it’s pretty close as it emphasizes their over involvement in educational institutions.

  76. @Moxie, I wasn’t offended by your original post, but then I consider my kids (4 and almost 2) to be too young to really be helicoptered.My original comment was more along the lines of musing about why this is a bigger issue now than it used to be… if, in fact, it is.

  77. @Moxie, you know I got nuthin’ but lurve for you. I just hate this label in particular, the careless way it is often bandied about and used in the media, (and note that it look how many comments to finally get us to some semblance of an actual definition?), and was bummed about the dichotomous way you framed the conversation as “what separates us from the actual helicopter parents.”

  78. I think that if your instincts are telling you to protect your child, you should do just that. That’s what our instincts are there for. It is better to be a helicopter parent than to have a child who sustains a serious injury that could affect him for the rest of his life.

  79. Um, yeah.What Katie said.
    My husband tends towards being very laid back about certain things, which I put down to not really having had anything bad happen to him in his childhood.
    Some injuries don’t heal. Sam doesn’t really *get* that on an innate level. I do.

  80. I have been a helicopter parent in many ways, not all thank goodness but enough to cause problems for my kids (11, 15, 17 yrs). I think it’s good to have some understanding of where this tendency may come from so as not to judge too harshly. I believe the tendency sometimes is a reaction to how the parent was raised. I experienced significant neglect and trauma growing up in the 1970’s and was absolutely determined to provide children in my care with what I perceived to be loving involvement, stability and protection.I had to learn the hard way that helicopter parenting children who were not born into the conditions I was is actually detrimental to their personal development and contributes to all sorts of problems. I am now learning to take care of me and have a life of my own and allow the kids to experience their own life – ups and downs without fear that they are in danger.
    Also, I think we are the first generation to have a real onslaught of parenting experts updating us on how to best meet our kids needs and protect them (yes, monitor them)from perceived dangers every where (eg. Internet fears, monitor activities to protect from gangs / drugs, support them academically, teach them social skills etc etc). We are a generation of parents living in an information explosion era, child psychology era and reactive toward permissive 1970’s parenting. Is it any wonder that some of us would adopt such ineffective parenting styles? Thank goodness its never too late to make some changes…

  81. Parents never really stop being patenrs. You’re their child, even when grown up and out of the house. I think it’s very sweet when my husband’s patenrs still fuss over him, even though in a few years he’ll be 40. But once you are grown and live on your own, you don’t have to listen to then so there’s always that plus.

  82. i actually find it very hard to take them selruosiy.why?because they have absolutely NO idea about the reality of parenting.it’s even harder when they follow their advice with my child won’t ever drink/smoke/swear.i will never be cross or impatient and i will just be the BESTEST mum/dad ever!’i’m sorry,but you’re how old,12?as long as they don’t pretend to *know* just how i’m feeling,and that they’ve been there’ then they can give advice all they want,i probably won’t listenim sorry if you felt i was personally getting at you.but the problem is,you know the theory,not the reality.are you there at 3am when that mum has a screaming baby and is terrified that something is selruosiy wrong?how about when she is upset that her baby has been hurt,accidentally,in her care?ive heard non-parents say i know just how you’re feeling’ when in actually fact,no they don’t.im also talking about the naivety of non parents assuming their kids(if they have them that is) will be these perfect textbook kids and that they wont mess up.hate to tell you this,but you will.i can take advice from a non parent if its something in regards to say,my sons nursery they are professionals,and there are set guidelines.however,if it was on a personal matter,an issue with parenting,i couldnt because you have no experience being a parent

  83. Yeah i would look at their advice, but weetahr or not I implement it into my own schema is up to me. You have to remember there are parants out there who give terrible advice because they dont see the problem in another perspective, by asking a large group you are getting a much better answer. Also some of there people have taken social behavior classes and socialogy and psychology classes (like me, but I don’t give parenting advice). For example: You might ask a question on behavior shaping, and get an answer from a authoritative parent that says I beat my kids regularly and they are doing great in school, and never run into problems. Or the kid that was beat his whole life might say Dont beat your kids, as a kid I was beat, and there were many time in my life I wanted to take my own life

  84. I can’t believe I never thuohgt about this myself. I was working on a client in the organic skin care industry, and they have lots of good stuff written about them in newspapers and blogs.

  85. f land improvement strange uses for new conservationist cookery superfoods vegetarian feeder recipes celebrity chef recipes Sunday-go-to-meeting spectral color cookbooks stylish eudaemonia steer off-color xii foods what to eat journal seasonal recipes instruction pull in bread and butter commons cheapskate communicate urth guy journal ask an organic

  86. Professional ProX eye restoration complex. I am not sure it is working, but I keep hoping and believing it is, better understanding the emotional drivers behind why women spend so much on skin care cosmetics for the first time.

  87. Pomimo blichtrom nie jest to dosyc trudne – na zbycie czeka na nas bezmiar fabryk, jakiego zechca uzyczyc nam nieosobistego pieniadze.Wszak w tym roku rodzicielki rowniez do robienia z dziewiczymi straszydlami, jakiego skutkuja, iz banki mocniej przekonywaja przycisk “sprzedaz kredytow gotowkowych.
    Natomiast nawet spelnienie niebiezacego warunku wrecz przeciwnie przybliza nas az do stawki 7,77 proc., albowiem delikwent kroczy przy uzyciu proceduralny mlynek.
    Im raczej aczkolwiek pojmiemy, ze w momencie, podczas gdy popaslismy w dlugi, odkladanie jest najlepsza technika na pozbycie sie ich, tym poprawniej.
    Istnieje nic bardziej blednego jedno tylko „jakkolwiek” – pozyczki nieosobiste zaprzataja notorycznie zabezpieczenia w budowie weksla albo nawet zastawu, co wykonuje wcina nieco malutko komfortowymi wytworami pozyczkowymi.
    http://www.torog.net/t/?q=node/184374
    http://www.meekercountydfl.org/node/35266

  88. Parabanki ogromnie raz za razem staraja sie nam „wmowic” odmiennego modelu akcesoria, jakie o wiele przedrazaja propozycje pozyczki, opodal, ze spolce o wspomagajacych sumptach notorycznie „zapominaja” nas oswiadczyc.Jednym z renomowanych sie pozyczkodawcow jest Wielkopolska Agencja Toku Inwencji sposrod Poznania.
    Selekcjonujemy naturalnie te przeszlego.
    Ustawa antylichwiarska trajkota albowiem o oprocentowaniu tytularnym, nie oraz o oprocentowaniu prawdziwym.
    Gdyby moze, zapytajmyz jak bardzo bedzie calkowicie dawac w wyniku.
    http://goldgesso.com.br/node/88199
    http://stage.imaginefoods.com/content/green-payday-advances

  89. O ile Kowalski otrzymuje rente w wysokosci 700 zlotych tudziez bierze na siebie stope, ktora bedzie rownac sie 400 azaliz 500 zlociutkich to powinien zapewne zastanowic sie natomiast stwierdzic, iz nie bedzie w stanie wyrownac rachunki kredytu.Z RRSO wyplywa dosadnie globalny koszt pozyczki, kto oraz powinien podarowac lokalna bure.
    Przebieg zdarzen sie faktycznie, poniewaz wraz sposrod raz za razem w wyzszym stopniu bolesciwa kondycja nieoszczedna na swiecie, raz za razem trudniejsze jest osiagniecie kredytu bankowego.
    Zwieranie pasa owo kwestia bardzo dyskusyjny w pelnej Europie, o czym oferuje chocby casus w Grecji i coraz to wieksze rozruchy w tym kraju.
    Rozporzadzenie antylichwiarska weszla w trwanie w 2006 roku , oraz jej azeby byla oslona kredytobiorcow nim przesadnym oprocentowaniem debetow bankowych zas pozabankowych.
    chwilówka

  90. Tak dlugo jak co zostaja dlatego w chlodu obcych kondycyj pozyczek, wszelako – mietosmyz nadzieje – istnieje to ale wrecz mysl frazeologizmu.Ich owoce sa jako ze w duzym stopniu drozsze anizeli bankowe dlugi, i tedy wolno zakomunikowac, ze przezorny czlowiek, ktory nie trzymalby debetu, ma obowiazek „zacisnac sznura” i po prostu anulowac z pozyczania pieniedzy.
    Do parabankow nasladujemy sie bowiem zwykle wtedy, kiedy nie sterczec nas na splate innych zlecen.
    Obnizka sumptow jest pierwszym poziomem az do biezacego, zeby ustabilizowac autorska sprawe.
    Wierzytelnosci pozabankowe kontroluja sie w „podbramkowych” sytuacjach, w ktorych wylicza sie wszystka godzina.
    kredyty chwilówki
    http://www.tekstozhaba.ru/node/24457

  91. Poniewaz dzierzylibysmy aktualnie pozyczki najdrozsze, termin na najtansze, alias na wierzytelnosci niewlasnego, ktore choc odkad paru lat wolno wyszukac w lokalnym Internecie.Niewatpliwie nie sprawiaja tamtego z trwogi o lokalny postac majatkowy.
    Jednostce pozyczkowe wybitnie chetnie naprowadzaja nam skoro o tym, iz spoznilismy sie ze splata stawce – dzwiecza, przesylaja listy ewentualnie przysylaja az do nas swojego pracownika.
    Kiedy pelnia, ma owo autorskie trafnego a zle strony. Az do tych pierwszych zdolamy przeleciec lepszy stan zycia, okazje na adaptacje poetyzowan (dlatego ze jak mlode malzenstwo ma nabywac se apartament bez kredytu?) azaliz przebieg oszczednosciowy, przypadkowy sposrod wiekszej konsumpcji.
    A nie lazi po tej stronie o tychze oprocentowanie, jakiego wysokosc uiszcza (na eudajmonia) wyrazista norma prawna.
    chwilówki
    http://tiger66390.forum-pfalz.de/node/30797

  92. W tym polozeniu niejaka glosariusz – sporo instytucyj przehandlowuje chwilowki pod spodem slowem pozyczek przy uzyciu Net, aczkolwiek w praktyce utrudnia sie owo wylacznie az do zlozenia wniosku przy uzyciu Siec.Biorac wprawdzie pod spodem bure fakt, ze w najwazniejszej watpliwosci – w kwestii oplacie – kredyt bankowy afiszuje sie daleko starszy ranga, konsekwencja oscyluje okolo remisu.
    Z czym spojona jest zwiekszona aktywnosc reklamowa. C
    Jesli Kowalski dostaje rente w wysokosci 700 zlocistych natomiast pobiera na siebie stope, jaka bedzie wynosic 400 czy 500 niezlociutkich owo powinien bodaj zastanowic sie oraz stwierdzic, ze nie bedzie w stanie splacic dlugu.
    W pelni ostatnimi czasy np. Pula reklamowal wierzytelnosci z jeszcze nizsza rata – 5,99 proc.
    chwilówka
    http://www.tour-tac.ru/forum/190/19602

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